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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-02-07 13:07
i just got a new box of reeds a couple weeks ago -vandoren v12 size 3, and i pulled out 5 to start breaking in, and i took out the other 5 last night.
i usually play each one for a few minutes and line them up according to how well it played for me.
as i was lining up my reeds last night, i was thinking about what GBK said about vandoren making the reeds in 1/10 increments. thats means there would only be 1 actually size 3 in the box. the rest would be 3.1 or 3.2 etc... so i was thinking, they HAVE to make so many of each one to put in the box. so why cant they just # them on the back like that? instead of size 3 on all of them, which arent really all a size 3. put the actual #. AND, if they have to make so many in each size just to fill a box, why not just sell them in such small increments? then we all could find the exact size thats best for us, whether it be 3.4 or 3.8 and just buy that size and then all of them would work well.
is this possible? what do you think GBK?
JL
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-02-07 13:16
Becasue the strength that is perfect today will be too strong or too weak tomorrow depending on such variables as the weather, the state of your oral cavity etc especially if you need to have that precise an accuracy on reed strength to play one.
You will be better off learning to accommodate a reasonable range of strength (say +/- 0.25). This will generally allow you to use almost all the reeds in a box.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-02-07 13:31
And best of all, you MUST learn to adjust reeds by scraping and/or sanding. That's the only way you can be assured that most of your reeds will perform adequately for you, and will last a reasonable amount of time before becoming unplayable.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-02-07 13:44
Cane is variable, as well. For a comparison, R13 Buffet clarinets are all different. I prefer a box of reeds with variances, because of weather, and changing mouthpieces, etc. I may prefer some of the reeds that you discard from the same box! Read "The Clarinetist's Compendium" by Daniel Bonade. It's a short volume that contains the best reed information, in my opinion, regarding reed-working.
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Author: Emms
Date: 2002-02-07 13:52
David - just a thought. Why MUST we all learn to adjust reeds. When reeds were first used, they just came as soft, medium, hard, so they HAD to be adjusted. Nowadays we have the technology to grade them in 1/10 increments (which was a surprise to me). Most of us amateurs, I'm sure, would be happy finding a reed strength we are most happy with, and buying just a few increments either side. If in size 3, there were strengths from 2.5 to 3.5, and we preferred reeds 3 to 3.5, why should we have to buy the half we don't want? There is a big difference between a 2.5 and a 3.5 reed. (or would the box contain 2 of each reed between 3 and 3.5?)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-02-07 13:59
Actually there's not more than +/- 1/4 in any box. So that's not such a huge difference from your base strength. And remember today's perfect reed can be tomorrow's dog. You need some variation available. Just put a "bad" reed back in the box and use it a different day.
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Author: Emms
Date: 2002-02-07 14:02
My bad reeds tend to stay in the box. I sand them / whatever, then they end up in the bin. I need to learn adjust them, but don't have the time.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-07 14:51
Emms -
Almost no reed is perfect out of the box. A box of Vandorens may have only 1 or 2 reeds that play well without adjustment. With adjustment, there are only 1 or 2 reeds in a box that *can't* be made to play well.
More important, no cane reed stays the same for more than a day or two. Unless you use a plastic reed, you simply have to learn to make adjustments if you want to play your best.
I can afford to buy a box of reeds whenever I need them, but I take great satisfaction in making most reeds play well, regardless of the money. And when a good reed goes off, I feel much more confident knowing how to revive it.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2002-02-07 14:51
Just to clarify a point regarding the first posting, VanDoren--nor any other reed maker, for that matter --does not make reeds in 1/10th degree increments. Their products just turn out that way, naturally. That degree of control in fine tuning and grading of a substance so inconsistant and unpredictable as cane, would be impossible. What reed makers try to do is identify a general strength range of reeds and then try to grade them accordingly. Therefore, in any particular box of reeds, you will get some variance in strength, but have a selection of reeds that will be close to the labeled strength on the box. I have tried reeds that claim to be graded in 1/4 strengths and have found them to be as inconsistant as my favs, the VanDorens. Perhaps it would make more sense to sell reeds in greater volume--perhaps 50 per box--and simply label the strength as Bb Clarinet Reeds, Soft, Medium, or Hard. Bottom Line: as the great clarinet teacher at the University of Michigan, Bill Stubens, used to say, "Play the reed, don't let the reed play you!" Learning to adjust and play reeds with slightly different playing characteristics is essential and, for all woodwind players, "just comes with the territory." Good Clarineting!!!!!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-02-07 15:39
janlynn...Much good advice from all the "regulars" above.
I am hardly the "reed master" - as I have my moments with Vamdorens, just everyone else does. However, I have learned to use the variance in each box to an advantage rather than a disadvantage.
The slight differences from reed to reed in any given box is most likely Vandoren's attempt to make each box as "universal" for as many players as possible, under as many conditions as possible. But, as we are talking about a previously living object, no technnology will make nature 100 % fool proof.
What I do (again - hardly the "gospel") like many others on this page probably do as well, is prepare some reeds that are a little on the hard side, some close to what I need at present, and a few a little softer than what is needed. That way "all bases are covered", and you have the control (as William pointed out) rather than the reed having the control over you. Turn the variance in the box to your advantage.
Wouldn't it be nice to buy a box of all exact reeds that you need (say 3.6)? Well, it's never going to happen, so we have to sharpen our reed adjusting skills (pun intended) and learn how to control the variability as much as possible.
Thank you for addressing this thread to me, however others above (you all know who you are) have already given you some great answers...GBK
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-02-07 15:55
okay guys, these are great answers and do make a lot of sense.
i have another question tho....i have tried to adjust my reeds, many many times. got a book on it. bought the tools followed the directions. but always seem to make them worse than they were to start with so i stopped trying. my teacher wont help me more than just telling me what to do. wont really take the time to show me or whatever. no, hes not a bad teacher and i dont want a new one. but i want to learn how to fix my reeds.
is then anyone here willing to help me thru it, using email, in a sort of step by step process?
JL
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-02-07 17:18
If you want sub strengths of reeds, last I knew Zonda had a numeric system with lettered substrengths. I can imagine both from the retailing as well as manufacturing point of view, it would be difficult to deal with 20 or more microstrengths of reeds. It is also hard to say what will fit each mouthpiece. It varies depending on the player and playing situation.
It is important to work on reeds, not because all commercial reeds are bad, but to match it to your own mouthpiece. Even with the same facing, each plays a bit different due to other variations in internal dimensions. Often, you will find that you do need a variety of reeds as others have mentioned due to weather etc, but also the venue, style, part or piece you are playing.
Janlynn- what reed books have you tried? I learned a tremendous amount by trial and error. I often learned by failure what not to do. It takes time. Do searches on the Klarinet archives. Check old issues of the Clarinet magazine. I have heard that the info in Larry Guy's book is very good. One of the most important things I have found is to find a routine and stick to it. Consistency is important.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-02-07 17:24
well, it is larry guys book i have. ....i dunno, i did what he said to do, but they ended up any better. just worse. i wish i could have reed adjusting lessons. sit down one on one with someone who will explain and show me how to do it at the same time.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-02-07 17:41
Actually the first thing to try with any reed before changing the reed itself is simply to move it higher or lower on the mouthpiece, move the ligature up or down, and in some cases even put the reed slightly to one side or another. This allows me to play most reeds in a box without any adjustments.
It is perfectly ok to have the tip of the reed slightly above or below the tip of the mouthpiece. It is ok to have the ligature above or below the guidelines (they are only guides not rules).
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2002-02-07 18:00
Janlynn --
This is one of those great threads where everyone has had something intelligent and worthwhile to say on the subject. I hope I don't break the streak.
You asked about help with reed adjustment. One of the posters above mentioned the Bonade book Clarinetist's Compendium. It is a ~16 pager published by Leblanc. If you can't get it through Luyben or Dorn or Southern, try a Leblanc dealer or go through Amazon. This book is great on reed adjustment. But beware of the section on embouchure. It contains typos or misprints which if followed literally will have you swallowing your mpce. Leblanc should have corrected that section long ago.
Another great book which shows you not only how to adjust reeds but also how to make your own reeds from blanks ( I learned how to make reeds from Glenn Bowen but I don't recommend that you do so; I find that using high strength manufactured reeds as "blanks" is much quicker and easier) is David Pino's book which I think is called The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing. Dover reprinted it and you can buy it for $10. Keith Stein's Book The Art of Clarinet Playing also has valuable information on reed adjustment. Note that there are several great older books on reed adjustment such as the Opperman book which are unfortunately OOP.
For us saxophone players the Bible is Larry Teal's The Art of Saxophone Playing. It has a big diagram of sections of the reed along with explanations of where to adjust the reed to cure various problems. While we may disagree with some of Teal's findings, the principle to remember is that different reed problems require work on different areas of the reed. You can only get a feel for these things by actual practice adjusting your own reeds.
Take some reeds which don't play well. Pick out some and sand them right across the tip. Sand a little and play, then sand some more and play some more. Notice the changes in response. Do so until you have ruined the reeds. This will teach you what sanding the tip does to the response of the reed. Take some more reeds and do the same thing with the heart and then with other areas of the reeds, until you have ruined the reeds. This way you will learn what happens when you sand various parts of the reed from actual experience rather than attempting to take on faith book statements such as that you should never touch the tip or never touch the heart.
Don't be afraid to experiment. Remember that these are reeds which you found unplayable, so that you are not losing anything by this sort of "destructive testing".
One of the real pros once said something to the effect that the basics of reed adjustment can be learned in half an hour. All the rest is practice with abrasives or knives or both. It is as much an art as a science. Some reeds just cannot be saved.
Most players who learn the basics of reed adjustment are hooked for life and would not dream of ever going back to the old way of buying a box of ten reeds in order to get one or two players.
Let us know how you are progressing.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-02-07 18:08
okay, well - i definately have a ton of reeds i could experiment with without trying to go by the book guidlines. will try it tonight actually. will let you know how it works out.
jan
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-02-07 18:14
John...Good advice!!
That is about as perfect an internet lesson on reed adjustment as can be. "Long distance" learning is tough to describe. You did it well...GBK
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Author: Emms
Date: 2002-02-07 18:25
Dee - this is what I do. Saves time. So what if I don't play perfectly. At least I have time to get more practice in. Most of my playing is for myself, anyway.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-02-07 19:10
Probably if I had to narrow down the couple things that I find to help my reeds the most:
1. Break in reeds slowly, rubbing down the back on a flat surface, and vamp to seal. I don't use sandpaper for this, only a heavy large yellow envelope or better yet, a section from a brown paper bag.
2. Make sure that the reeds are flat. I use a bastard file, as it seems to take off the high spots and not so much of the rest of the reed as sandpaper does.
3. Make sure the reed is balanced, especially at the tip. A reed knife can work well if you know how to use it carefully, if not, try reed rush or a small file. (you can get a set of small needle files at Sears or at a hardware store.)
Those are the top on my hit parade. Janlynn- email me if you have specific questions.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-07 20:46
Not a new comment, but my saliva production varies, maybe with phases of the moon or the barometric pressure or how spicy was the chili at lunch or something. I use a considerably harder than usual reed when I seem to be slobbering more, and a softer one when my mouth seems more dry. Works fine for me.. Anyway, due in part to this (and partly to changes in embouchure for various reasons, such as when I've been playing longer than my chops can handle it), I would not want a box full of identical reeds.
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Author: Jerry McD
Date: 2002-02-07 22:39
Janlynn,
Did you ever think you would get so many good responses? This board is awesome! I am going to give you my two cents and hopefully some practical advice to adjusting your reeds. First and foremost remember that you are adjusting the playing characteristics. The sound will round into form as the reed performs better (you can adjust the sound but it is best to worry about the playing characteristics first). I think the number one problem that a reed has is it is not flat. This is especially true after some playing. I use 600 grit sandpaper on a flat surface to flatten the back of the reed. Earl Bates at Indiana used to say that a reed doesn't have a chance of vibrating properly if it is not flat. This might lighten it up a bit, but it should immediately improve the response.
Now for adjustments on the vamp (front 'cut' side of the reed). If you divide the vamp in thirds and think of these parts as corresponding to registers on the clarinet. The bottom third (towards the butt end) corresponds to the bottom octave low E to throat E. The middle section is for the next octave to 4th space E. Finally the top third for everything above that. If you are having problems with a particular register, chances are that the corresponding area on your reed is not balanced. When we refer to balance, it means that both the left and right side of the reed is vibrating equally, generally translated as they are of the same thickness.
How do you make the adjustments? When scraping on the reed it is important to stay away from the center of the reed. This area is known as the 'heart' and every reed needs as much of this heart as possible. Think of a line extending vertically throught the center of your reed from bark to about 1/4 of an inch from the tip. This line is about 1/3 of an inch wide and I would recommend staying away from this area. Therefore most of your adjustments are made on the sides of the reed a little bit in from the rail. When making adjustments remember that a little goes a long way. You can always take off, but you cannot put back on. Therefore, make a couple light scrapes taking off a few grains of cane maybe 1/2 an inch long and play test the reed. Ask yourself if it is better or worse, try and figure out what happened when you made that adjustment. When you're first learning how to do work on reeds it is very important to figure out "if I scrape here....this is what happens." That way when you have a reed with a particular problem you will know where to work on the reed. It does not have to be hit and miss. There is some trial and error in the beginning, but it should be trial and learn.
Finally the tip. This is an area that can be just a little devil to work on. Here are some a couple very 'shirt-couf' methods to use. Many people say don't go by the appearance of a reed, it doesn't tell you how it will play. True, but it can be an indication. Hold a reed up to a strong light. I use a bare bulb. What you want to see is even shading across the entire reed, both left and right, and gradually increasing opaqueness (is that a word....gradually getting darker) until about midpoint of the vamp. I have found that the better the shading patterns, the closer a reed is to being balanced properly. Remember that the closer you get to the tip a VERY little scraping goes a VERY long way.
o.k. this has been long winded enough.....sorry. Just remember these points: the reed must be flat. Do this first. Second....scrape a LITTLE, try the reed, scrape a LITTLE, try the reed, repeat etc.
I sincerely hope you found this helpful. Happy scraping. By the way...the poster above who mention David Pino's book is correct, great information.
Jerry McD.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-02-08 05:56
These are other ways I make it a rule to do:
1)Start using a reed after at least 3 - 6 months seasoning/drying-up/climatizing.
It will lengthen reed life twice. Pretreat it by ReedLife to sanitize it to avoid micro-
organism from developing. Vandoren reeds are in France anyway.
2)Select reeds with denser pores. Reeds with coaser pores are more susceptible
to wetness. Applying transparent nail enammel to the heel may strengthen
the reeds.
3)Use a reed every other day or more favorably every two or three other days to
allow them to dry up and recover themselves. In another word, rotate a group of
reeds. This reed is for Monday, this reed is for Tuesday, .... etc.
4)There is another thing often we forget: wash a new reed before breakiing-in to
get rid of micro cane dust from the surface with luke warm flowing water and do
this again after using it every time to remove saliva or other micro-wastes
included in saliva.
I suspect by my personal experience to have reeds for a long period inside a reed case with a sealed condition may literally kill it. If water is held without the existence of air(oxygen), it rottens before drying up.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-02-08 09:30
Here in Paris, you can take your favorite reed to Vadoren and have them replicate it. I blow a 52 according to their machine, which is a tad under a 2 1/2. But there is a disadvantage to this system. You can come away with 10 great reeds. Or 10 bad ones. I've gone back to buying boxes of reeds at the store, since I figured out that over a long period, I get more useable reeds that way, even if it means a bit of scraping.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-02-10 06:19
I still vote for Bonade's book (The Clarinetist's Compendium). In it there is a great drawing of the reed and its parts. I don't agree with Hiroshi about all of the "sanitation". I am a "health nut" so I would never use a chemical disinfectant, even alcohol, anyway. I just use saliva (my reeds, my saliva); reeds seem to "seal" better with it. I've tried to use water, but my experience gave me more warped reeds that way. I use a reed knife to scrape, actually an oboe knife. It works better than sandpaper or reed rush, because it is more exact. Of course, oboe reeds are more fragile so it is logical that it should work better for clarinet reeds, as well. One of my friends uses a bassoon knife. I've also used it for a "quick fix" in rehearsal situations. I carry a small, finished rectangle piece of glass in my clarinet case with the oboe knife for quick adjustments. Better yet...I'll admit that I am "lazy", and the gift of that trait is that I looked for the most efficient ways of doing things to get the longest lasting reeds! Another thing to remember is, because of the way that the clarinet is held, there is more pressure from your mouth onto the right side of the mouthpiece and, therefore, on the reed. So if you must scrape, take it off the left side of the reed first. If you must scrape the heart, scrape the left part of the heart first, etc.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-02-11 01:36
Um - pardon my ignorance but what is a "bastard file"? - a very curious "diz".
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