 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: C@p
Date: 2002-01-23 03:57
As the weather becomes less humid, I think the rings on my Vintage R-13 are expanding or the clarinet is shrinking. The lower bell ring is loose and a barrel ring is loose. The middle ring is still tight.
If I have them tightend, will the expansion in the Spring cause a problem. If I don't will I chance cracking anything?
Also, if the humidy goes down, what would happen if I did not completely dry out the horn before putting it back into its case?
C@p
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-01-23 04:19
While metal will expand with temperature, it takes quite a change. The wood is shrinking due to low moisture content.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-23 12:37
If a ring is loose it loses its function - to stop the very thin-walled socket from splitting when the tenon is inserted. Get them refitted with more filler, eg shellac, or the relatively makeshift, do-it-yourself option, paper 'shim'. There will be a tendency for the rings to burst but in practice this never happens in modern instruments which don't have joins in the rings - as far as I know.
Keeping the packing there for the next humid season will probably do no harm. Perhaps take out the packing, aclimatise, and refit the rings if the tenon timber starts jamming (rather than attacking the tenon).
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Author: William
Date: 2002-01-23 14:38
The purpose of the rings is to help prevent the thin walled socket sleeves from breaking under pressure of instrument assembly--you should not play your clarinet if the rings are too loose to provide this needed support. Adding filler is a short term, emergency kind of solution. When my rings loosen, I run them down to my friendly "neighborhood" repairperson, Mary, who inserts them into a device (like a big press) that actually resizes the rings for a more snug and functional fit on the socket sleeves. Most good repair facilities should have this equipment on site. Good (and crack free) Clarineting!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-23 15:25
I would also recommend taking it to the repairman for a check up. He/she could advise you better than we--especially if he/she lives in your area. They would be familiar with the "quirks" of your particular weather. But, it is not a good idea to continue to use an instrument with loose rings for the above-stated reasons.
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2002-01-23 16:34
How about a humidifier in the case to keep the wood from drying out so much? Works for my horns. Seems to me, if you keep resizing the rings, the wood fibers will get crushed the next time the wood expands and the problem will continue. I think it's better to stabilize the wood.
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Author: FT
Date: 2002-01-23 17:32
The SAME THING HAPPENED TO MY VINTAGE R13. The rings were loose, but I took it to the repair shop and the gyu put stips of paper in order to make the rong fit. my clarinet was only 1 day old
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-01-23 17:37
C@p -
If the rings get so loose they fall off as you take the instrument out of the case, some emergency humidification is in order. That happened to me last week with the top ring of a barrel. I wet a paper towel, squeezed most of the water out of it and put it with the barrel in a ZipLoc bag overnight. By the morning, everything was fine.
Doing this too often is an invitation to mold, but I didn't want to risk a crack. One night was plenty.
I wouldn't leave water in the socket, since it tends to soak into the end-grain of the wood, but, again, doing it once overnight probably wouldn't hurt.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: frank
Date: 2002-01-23 20:24
Jumping to the extreme of resizing the rings is too much. It is wintertime, the air is dry and the wood WILL shrink if your case isn't properly humidified. Use Dampits, sponges, anything to keep the moisture in the atmosphere of the case at a constant perentage. If this is the case the rings will fit as usual. If the wood shrinks, then of course the rings will fall off or at elast turn with ease. BUt bu all means, try humidifying the horn and the case first. I would expect any repair tech to give that a try before shrinking the rings to fit the improperly himidified wood. More could go wrong with the resizing and subsequent swelling of the wood rahter than allowing the wood to regain it's original size.
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Author: RonD
Date: 2002-01-23 22:36
I had the same thing happen to a new E11 a year ago I had the technician shim the ring and have had no trouble since. The tech said he would consider resizing if the ring was loose during a long spell of humid weather. The cost was very modest.
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Author: C@p
Date: 2002-01-24 01:23
I live in the western suburbs of Chicago. We had a few weeks below 32 degrees. Lately it has been around 25 at night but as high as 45 or 50 during the day.
I checked the rings again and it is the bottom bell ring which does not have any pressure about it and one top barrel ring and a bottom ring on another barrel.
The top bell and the middle rings are tight. They seem to be joints that would take the stress of assembly and disassembly. Is the only jeopardy during putting the horn together and taking it apart?
What would happen if I did not swab out the instrument after playing except to dry out the joints? Can you expound on humidifying the case or refer me to a prior thread on the subject?
And what about oiling the horn. I would think it woudl be too late now as the oil would keep the horn from remoisturizing. I thought once it was oiled it should last a year and prevent this shrinking problem by keeping the moiture in.
C@p
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-24 09:06
It is not just assembly and disassembly. While the instrument is in an assembled state the cork, unless it is rather loose, exerts considerable pressure outwards on the socket. It takes vey little pressure from inside to split an unreinforced, thin-walled, wooden tube.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-01-24 15:00
In past posts, Gordon (NZ) has demonstrated himself to be a knowledgable professional repair tech. I would listen to his advice. Also, if the rings haven't loosened too much, remoisturization can tighten them. Some time ago, in a thread on the Klarinet list, one of the top professionals who participates there (I don't remember if it was a symphony musician or a repair tech) recommended putting a small amount of orange peel in the case for this purpose (other citrus would probably also work). I tried this with about a square inch in a plastic sandwich bag with a few holes in it and the wood expanded so that the rings had no play within a day. Two caveats, however: (1) the improvement is temporary and appears to require constant presence of the orange peel until more humid weather returns -- the wood would shrink within a day after I stopped using the peel -- so you apparently can't just put in the peel until the rings are tight, and (2) you have to replace the piece of peel frequently because it dries out and/or becomes moldy fairly quickly.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-25 04:39
Don't use citrus peel if there is ANY polystyrene, either foam or solid incorporated in the case lining. Citrus oil (in the skin), and no doubt the oil vapour also, turns it to mush.
AS far as the benefits or otherwise of 'moisturizing' the case I know little. I would wonder about the growth of mould on the pads and timber in a moist, dark case with no air circulation. I've seen it often enough.
I would use a piece of moistened sponge in a perforated container in preference to citrus for the above reason.
Some fumes also severely attack nickel plating, eg polyurethate fumes and goodness knows what else. Why experiment unnecessarily. If you want moisture, stick to moisture, not other volatile fumes thrown in.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-01-25 18:47
Ah, well, what can I say. Hans Moennig recommended orange peel. He held that the volatile oil in the peel was beneficial to the process but what did he know? (And cases were made of wood in his day.) Another good repair tech who uses orange peels is Steve Prescott. The issue is apparently a matter of opinion (sort of like the issue of bore oiling).
In my specific situation, (loose barrel and bottom bell rings) orange peel succeeded where a guitar humidifier with water failed. The case was wood so I can't comment on the effect on foam (the reaction sounds plausible, how much oil would be necessary to cause it?) but there was no tarnishing to the keys, which are nickle plated (but, again, the case was wood). There has apparently been a recent revival of this thread on the clarinet list. Searching the Klarinet Archives on "orange peel" without the quotes yields around 166 hits, not all of which are directly pertinent, none of which (at least among the ones I read) gives a definitive solution, and some of which are, IMO, quite humorous.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-26 10:42
"How much oil would be necessary to cause it?"
With concentrated oil the result is 'instant'.
1. Fold a piece of fresh orange peel in half over a piece of styrofoam - the rather brittle stuff, not the bendable polyurethane foam. Where the specks of oil land the foam is instantly pitted.
2. Put a drop of concentrated citrus cleaner on the foam. A large crater will instantly appear.
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