 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bb
Date: 2002-01-02 18:44
I want to play in an orchestra when I grow up. But how much $ will I get????
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2002-01-02 20:01
It depends on the orchestra... and whether it is a full or part-time ensemble.
Some orchestras pay a yearly salary while others pay per service. I've seen
positions advertised from $10, 000 to $60,000 or more. If you have access to
the International Musican journal put out by the American Federation of
Musicians, there are always openings listed in the back. This would be a good
way for you to get an idea of how it all works. Have fun!
Kristen Denny
GTA: Clarinet, UNL
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Author: Peter
Date: 2002-01-02 21:28
Not nearly as much as the rockers, and it's a darn shame.
Some of us older BB inmates might remember a piece of music by The Doors titled "Spanish Caravan." For those who do not, a good part of it is this fantastic classical Spanish guitar melody most people would not expect to have come out of even the exceptional, above average American "rock" group.
In an interview many (many) years ago, during which the question came up, they told an interviewer that they had all been trained as classical musicians, but that, mainly for the fame and money, they had chosen to play rock instead. The lack of opportunity for classical musicians was also brought up, as I vaguely remember. Of course, they enjoyed rock music, as well, or their success in it might not have been as great.
And its a darn shame that someone who can play classical guitar with such style should have chosen to play rock, although he did that excellently well, too.
Country music's Roy Clark is another one who can play incredible classical music, but chose to make a living in a different medium.
Playing in the orchestras is more of a vocational, as opposed to a financial enterprise. Not to say you can't make a living, especially if the particular orchestra is a well placed one, in a major urban center.
While your question is valid and interesting, I think if you worry more about the music, rather than the money, everything will work out for you in the end. Not everyone makes it, but there can also be a great degree of satisfaction in having earnestly gone all out for something worthwhile, whether you eventually reach your objective, or not.
This gender-specific quotation is probably out of tune with the times, but someone (I can't remember who) once said something to the effect of that "...if you exert yourself like a man, all your goals can be surpassed."
Oh,well. Enough!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-02 21:52
"The influence you exert is through your own life, and what you've become yourself" ...Eleanor Roosevelt
Is that the quote, Peter? ...GBK
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Author: Peter
Date: 2002-01-03 01:59
Hi GBK,
No, this actually stated, "...then go out and exert yourself like a man...," but the jist was the same as I paraphased before, and definitely not by Eleanor Roosevelt.
I like the one you put forth also. Eleanor Roosevelt was quite a woman, especially for her time. I believe she was one of the great role models to induce women (ie.:Rosie the Riveter) to come out and take over the industrial home-front during WWII.
The woman could do anything she proposed to do, and was one heck of a first lady.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-03 02:11
Peter...I couldn't agree more. Well stated.
One of the true influences of "The Greatest Generation"...GBK
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Author: D
Date: 2002-01-03 06:31
how much $$$$........a thought to ponder.........you will spend upwards (if not more) than 240,000. for a job that pays perhaps one-tenth of that.
Syracuse, NY sym.....advertised opening for principal.......$23,000
Tucson sym........princpal.....21,000
2sd/eefer.......18,000
and these are union scale wages
this is not to discourage you. It's great that you have those aspirations. Most sym players, however, have several jobs besides the postion.....private teaching, repair, playing in local ww groups, etc.
practice, practice, practice
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Author: Eoin
Date: 2002-01-03 14:16
I've heard that European orchestral players get paid far less than their American counterparts.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-01-03 15:26
How much you get depends on how you define "get." In my own orchestral situation, we are paid a modest fee for every service. And our orchestra plays well enough to issue and sell CDs of performances, and has a dedicated audience--many of whom are season ticket holders. But I have always considered that the real reward--what I "get"--from playing with the symphony is the satisfaction of performing great music with a talented group of musicians under a good conductor. The feeling of musical gratification far exceeds the financial compensation received and is the true "how much I get" factor. So, IMHO, if your only goal in life is to be defined by how much "can I get" (money, I assume), consider a career in finacial management, retail sales or the stock market. Or redefine your goals in life in more aesthetic outcomes. Even the principal players in most major symphony orchestras suppliment their (often meager) incomes with academic teaching positions, private studios or custom products such as mouthpieces. But the real joy in their lives comes not only from personal musical endevors, but also--I am told--by "giving" to others as teachers and mentors. Often, how much you can get is in direct correlation to how much you can give. True friendship and personal satisfaction in teaching and playing the best that I can are my goals. Big bucks--$$$$$$$--of course, would be nice, but personal friendships (including being a friend) and musical accomplishment are much more important. As a humourus aside, one of my aquantancies plays in one of our major symphony orchestras on a personally owned Stradivarious violin. Did her playing position pay enough for the purchase of such an instrument--which she would let middle school students play on during summer music camp--????? No!!! She married the owner of a large metroplitan auto dealership who I, I think, purchased the instrument as an extra wedding gift. But her true pleasure was still to play her best with the symphony and work with students. Perhaps you could change the "what" I can get into a "who" I can get and enjoy the best of both worlds. Best of luck to you in your orchestral career and Good Clarineting!!!!!!
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2002-01-03 16:18
Why not consider another more lucrative field and pursue music part-time? As stated above and elsewhere on this site, the odds are small and the pay generally lousy. This isn't an issue for you now, but later in life you might want to buy a house, raise a family, send your kids to college, etc. At your age (I'm assuming that you're in middle school or possibly high school), you should try to expose yourself to as many new experioences as possible. Don't limit your horizon just yet. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-01-03 16:52
Well, lets not scare the kid too much...
I play in a medium size orchestra, probably similar the the one William performs with. Yet I own my own (11 room) home, have raised a family, and will be (hopefully) sending my daughter off to college next year and won't be too dependant on scholarship awards.
Of course I also teach and have a few other jobs (all music related). My point is that if this is the direction you want to go in (and indeed can't imagine yourself doing anything else), then go for it. Somehow, you will find a way to make it work.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-03 17:14
I don't know if we're scaring the kid, but rather "telling it like it is".
I too play in a medium size regional orchestra with a pay per service agreement. I was fortunate enough to have public school music teaching as my primary vocation. The security and benefits of teaching gave me peace of mind to pursue performing (orchestral, big band, jazz gigs, theater pit work) when I wanted to on my personal schedule.
It is nice to have dreams...we should foster growth and hope, but sometimes one has to hear the facts and the reality of a performing career to help form their own decisions...GBK
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-01-03 19:34
William said: "Even the principal players in most major symphony orchestras suppliment their (often meager) incomes with academic teaching positions, private studios or custom products such as mouthpieces."
First, let's accept the fact that what one makes (earns) is pretty relative -- to a lot of things. If you think that bringing in $300K annually is what constitutes a good living, then he is correct: it is a meager income.
However, should you compare the income of a typical MAJOR (and I'm speaking of, perhaps, the top 15 orchestras in the US) orchestral player (not just the principals--everyone!) to what is a breakdown of supposed income levels/classes you'll discover that the earnings are anything but meager. And while many do teach (myself included), that is generally a very small percentage of their earnings. And really now--how many orchestral clarinetists are turning out 'custom' equipment? Not too many....it's hardly a common income producing activity.
One can make what I regard as a very good living playing in a major symphony orchestra in the US. I guess it just depends on what you think 'good' is.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2002-01-03 20:05
A bit of clarification -
I'm not saying you can't make a living playing clarinet for one of the major symphony orchestras. How many of these positions exist (I'm guessing under 100)? Of those positions that exist, how many become available each year (I'm guessing 5%, or 5)? Now, how many budding orchestral clarinettists graduate each year with performance majors (I don't know, maybe 200)? How long does the backlog of budding clarinettists continue to audition (I'm guessing 5 years). This means that there are approx. 1000 people wanting those 5 jobs, or all things being equal, a 0.5% chance at getting that job. This is awful, and anybody who willfully chooses this career path should know this up front.
Now, given that you've put in the countless hours of practice time (and I mean countless, monotonous hours each day), graduated from college with a B.A. or M.A., and managed to land one of those 5 jobs, what kind of renumeration do you get? Remember, your job is in demand. There are numerous people who would probably do your job for no compensation whatsoever. You, my friend, are in a bad spot, and have little (if any) leverage.
Well, the figures I've heard touted are all under $100k. I'm guessing maybe $60k. Sounds good? Remember that major symphonies don't play in the sticks. They are located in major metropolitan areas, areas that invariably have high costs of living. So, that $60k gets used up pretty quick. When someone tells you that you should pursue this career because you can't imagine doing anything else, they mean it. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: KayR
Date: 2002-01-03 20:07
In the area I live (medium size college town with high housing costs near a major metropolitan area), there is a local professional orchestra that pays essentially union scale. My programmer plays for them, and makes ~15K-20K per year from that particular gig. He also plays in a variety of other groups (primarily jazz) and subs for even more. He makes most of his music money in December (christmas concerts and dances) and summer (weddings). He still doesn't make enough just playing music to pay the mortgage and health insurance. That's why he works as a computer programmer part time, that provides health insurance and a steady (albeit not huge) income. Other friends I have in this area that are trying to make a living on music do not exclusively perform. Two teach at local middle schools, one is a lecturer (in music theory) at the local university and also teaches private lessons, another also owns a music store and teaches private lessons, yet another owns an instrument repair shop, and another does free-lance graphic design and teaches in addition to orchestral work.
The bottom line is if you get a job with a major city orchestra you will likely be able to make a decent living. You may also have to teach or play in some smaller groups to supplement that income. However, you might want to consider a backup career, possibly music related, to keep the mortgage paid and your kids fed in case you don't get a job with a major philharmonic orchestra.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2002-01-04 00:32
O.K., as long as we are being brutal:
Thank God I became an engineer, because I would not have the energy, drive and dedication it takes to make it through life as a middle to major orchestral musician.
(I really wanted to be a pirate, but I couldn't find a university offering the required courses.)
My parents were "patrons of the arts" in NY many years ago, and as such, we got to meet and mingle with many artists in all different disciplines. I don't ever remember meeting, or knowing of any orchestral musician who made a comfortable living just playing music in any orchestra. And it was probably easier then than it is now, life was much simpler.
The only exceptions, perhaps and depending on the orchestra, are conductors or music directors, and such. Oh, and musicians who were independently wealthy or married money, but they just used their "other money" to supplement their otherwise inadequate orchestral musician's salaries. (BTW, fine arts publicity and public relations people usually make money by the wheelbarrow-full.)
These musicians' sacrifice and dedication is legendary. The measure of their love
for their art is difficult to fathom by most who are not well involved with music. The amount of work they have to put in just to eventually be accepted to audition for an upper level orchestra is much more than someone like me puts into a year's worth of work to make a (probably better) living. Their level of expertise borders on perfection...
I'm not trying to imply that they live like beggars, but as I said before, it's a darn shame.
People who play a few chords while someone screams into a microphone; who buy electronics and hire special effects people to "make" their sound; and whose music (and often social) education is often minimal, are making millions.
In fact, you can probably pay all the musician's salaries in a couple to a few major orchestras for a year on what a top "rock" band makes in the same period of time.
As Larry would say, "Go figure!"
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-04 01:38
Peter wrote:
>
> O.K., as long as we are being brutal:
>
> > My parents were "patrons of the arts" in NY many years ago, and
> as such, we got to meet and mingle with many artists in all
> different disciplines. I don't ever remember meeting, or
> knowing of any orchestral musician who made a comfortable
> living just playing music in any orchestra. And it was probably
> easier then than it is now, life was much simpler.
The players in the NY Symphony & Met make very reasonable livings, as do the players in Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, DC, LA, and more. Some near or above 6 figues, some upper 5 figures. The regionals don't pay enough to live on, it's true, but the top ones do just fine.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-04 02:53
Mark said: " The players in the NY Symphony & Met make very reasonable livings, as do the players in Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, DC, LA, and more. Some near or above 6 figues, some upper 5 figures. The regionals don't pay enough to live on, it's true, but the top ones do just fine."
Yes...That is true. But how many total clarinetists are we really talking about?
30...maybe 50.
It's nice to have dreams and aspirations...but sometimes the odds of this type of success are overwhelmingly steep.
Remember what mom once cautioned us about "putting all our eggs in one basket"...GBK
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Author: Peter
Date: 2002-01-04 03:26
I don't know about Chicago, but have you checked lately what the cost of living is in NY?
"Reasonable" doesn't always mean comfortable in NY, and "upper five figures" in NYC is not necessarily all that comfortable, though it's beats the heck out of "lower five figures." $75,000 in NY is like $25,000 in Miami, and that's not all that much.
And wait until city and state income taxes get done with you after federal income tax comes around!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-04 03:54
Peter,
I personally know an awful lot of people that work in NYC who make less than 75K and are comfortable. Of course most don't live <b>in</b> the city.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-01-04 04:17
The reality is that a great number of musicians derive somewhere between some and most of their income from teaching. (And why not, it is steady, and helps insure the continuation of the art.)
I suspect there might be some similarity to the percentage of music students who eventually play with big name orchestras, and that of aerospace students who ever fly on the space shuttle.
The income of rock stars, like that of sports superstars is totally out of proportion with the rest of reality, one of the aberations of a free market system.
Dream! But temper your dreams with a bit of reality, and always have a "plan B" ready in case.
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Author: Lisa Chien
Date: 2002-01-04 18:49
Mark,
I had to laugh at your quote: “I personally know an awful lot of people that work in NYC who make less than 75K and are comfortable. Of course most don't live in the city.” This is precious.
I live in Manhattan and I posed this question to several Manhattan dwellers “could you live in Manhattan by earning $75K?” The first response was a definite no. When I pushed them to think of ways it could be possible the responses were “well you could...but you couldn’t do it in style,” “you could but it would be a real struggle”, “you would really have to live like a college student”, “if you had savings or could suppliment your income with freelance you could. But you couldn’t maintain it for the long term.”
Without going into excruciating financial details I’ll present some real estate figures from a friend who works for Manahttan’s largest real estate firm. The average price for a one bedroom apartment in a good neighborhood in a doorman building with solid walls (important for clarinetist enthusiasts who practice at home) is about $360,000. Maintainance is about $1100 a month.
If you want to take advantage of the myriad of classical music concerts that New York has to offer and do so without sitting in the nose bleed sections then you have to shell out some dough.
I do know people who live in the outer boroughs or in New Jersey. For them going to a concert is a special and rare event that really requires planning. Waking and dressing for the concert, driving to work, eating an expensive dinner at a restaurant near Avery Fisher before the concert and driving home. These are very long days for them.
Ideally you want to go home after work, shower, relax eat dinner at you favorite local restaurant and take a 10 minute cab ride to and from the concert. I can do this about once a week. Sometimes twice a week when the sesons of Carnegie Hall, The Metropolitan Opera, Avery Fisher and Alice Tully overlap.
Sure it can be done if you live a very quiet life in an outer borough or New Jersey. But then you would not be taking advantage of a great city and its cultural life. New York City is the ultimate adult playground and it costs big bucks. You could live in Manhattan for under $75K a year but that would be like going to Great Adventure (an east coast amusement park) and only going on a couple of rides because you have the pay-per-ride ticket and want to save money. Ideally, you would go on every ride you want and make the day an adventure.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-04 19:10
Lisa Chien wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I had to laugh at your quote: “I personally know an awful lot
> of people that work in NYC who make less than 75K and are
> comfortable. Of course most don't live in the city.” This is
> precious.
Maybe you missed that little phrase "Of course most don't live in the city". Of course they live outside the city! The "ideal" is very seldom accomplished. San Francisco is just as bad if not worse. But, as I said, I know lots of people who work in NYC who make around 75K. They just don't live there.
BTW - how many people do you think attend the opera or orcestra outside of NYC? Even though the cost may be lower, the incomes are proportionately lower. I seldom go to concerts - I can't afford them, either!
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Author: Josh
Date: 2002-01-04 20:44
San Francisco is absolutely insane. I live right next to Davies Symphony Hall, right downtown, and you do *not* even want to know how much I pay for a one bedroom, and I got a great deal. (Granted, the whole hardwood floors/granite countertops/17 foot ceiling thing has to be accounted for...it's one of the sweeter places I've seen in SF) At one point, I lived in Pacific Heights, which is one of San Francisco's nicest neighborhoods (I plead callow youth on this one) and I paid very close to $1700 a month...for a studio apartment. With a shared bath. Oy.
I'm not entirely sure what the salary scale is like in the SFSO, but I have heard from a very reliable source (a graduate oboist friend at SFCM who studies with de Lancie) that the associate principal oboist makes a good chunk over $100K. Not bad cash, even in this looney bin of a city...so I suppose for the truly exceptional, there is reward to be had, but I wouldn't go into school thinking that you're going to get paid six figures a year unless you've already done some international playing. Just my $.02...
Happy clarinetting!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-04 20:50
I used to stay with a friend that had 8 rooms (basically the top floor of an building) smack on the crest of Russian Hill. Used to go on the roof to watch the sun set ... the place cost monthly almost what I made yearly at the time ...
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-01-04 20:53
I think the person who asked the original question Deserves to know the truth. I know too many teachers who try and push anyone who can play three notes in a row to become musicians or teachers, and that is just not right. There are not enough jobs for all of them (hell, there aren't enough for all of US!) and odds are they will not play OR teach after they graduate.
30-50 FT jobs is being generous, I think. Most people I know who play for a living play any picayune freelance gig they can get. And also, consider that if you don't go to Juilliard, Curtis, or one of the other prestigious conservatories you ain't gettin' one o'dem cushy jobs. If your teacher plays in the orchestra, you stand a better chance of making it in -- but that won't hold your job if you don't cut the mustard. :::::snicker::::::
Lynn
(from SE PA
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-01-04 21:36
Lynn said "And also, consider that if you don't go to Juilliard, Curtis, or one of the other prestigious conservatories you ain't gettin' one o'dem cushy jobs."
There are no rules anymore. There are plenty of those described above who don't (or won't) make it past square one, while some who went "nowhere" and may have studied with "nobody" do. Keep in mind that each orchestra--and therefore, each committee--just might have different ideas and priorities in who they hire.
Can attending the "right" school and/or studying with the "right" teacher make a difference--or make THE difference? Most certainly.
But don't assume assume it's a lock. And also don't assume that there might be some talent and knowledge elsewhere.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2002-01-05 02:43
Right on Lisa!
Many years ago, when I was in college, I lived in a six bedroom pent-house in Manhattan. It took 12 of us to pay the rent, and we all had parents who "helped." If we fell below 11 inmates, the cost of living there was prohibitive.
My lawyer niece rents a studio apartment, somewhat bigger than a walk-in closet, and it's somewhere around $2,600.00 per month. A parking space is about $1,800.00 additional.
Y'all do the math!
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-01-08 22:25
My "ten cents worth". How much will it pay - a lifetime of bliss in a wonderful environment of music ... the money? Oy - who cares - so long as your warm in winter, fed and happy.
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