 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-01 21:45
I'm wondering what will happen in the future of instrument-making. I've just purchased another Symphonie VII (I owned one a year ago and sold it), and have heard nothing but great things about the instrument. However, it is a bit pricey for most people and most prefer the darker, fuller sound of the Grenadilla wood. Also, there's the wonderful new Greenline by Buffet and, hopefully, other brands will follow with that.
Certainly, if the Symphonie VII doesn't do well in the marketplace Leblanc will stop making it. Patricola makes a rosewood model that isn't quite comparable to the Symphonie VII, but is still a popular instrument. Rossi makes one--and I'm sure there are others. My personal thoughts are that Grenadilla will remain the top material for clarinets, followed by the Greenline and then the other "designer" woods will eventually taper off and manufacturers will stop making them.
But, what do you repairmen and craftsmen think about the future of clarinet making?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-01-02 00:25
I was saddened to see a Patricola rosewood on ebay today . . . with TWO cracks. I'm afraid that Greenline might be the way to go for my next (?) clarinet.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-02 02:32
Yes, I thought about bidding on that one until I saw the cracks. But, the Symphonie VII has a bit better wood. But, the rosewood is a little more porous than Grenadilla. I'm sure it has something to do with seasoning--as well.
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Author: KevinS
Date: 2002-01-02 03:26
A question for Dave Speigelthal:
In all honesty, I'm not trying to be a smart aleck!
If the materials used to make up the keywork on an instrument have NO effect on the sound of a horn, then how can the difference between Grenadilla wood and Rosewood make a difference in the sound of an instrument? Or, even the Greenline material as opposed to "natural" Grenadilla. If all the other specifications are the same, how can the instrument sound different?
Thanks,
Kevin Stockdale
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-02 03:38
I know your question is for David S., but wood makes a difference in the tone of an instrument---any instrument. A guitar made of maple is very different from one of the identical shape and proportions made from Brazillian rosewood. The Leblanc Opus and the Symphonie VII are identical in keywork and acoustic dimensions, but have very different tones (I have played both side by side many, many times). Wood clarinets are typically more responsive than plastic, or even the Greenline models.
Hopefully, David S. will read this post and answer your question to your satisfaction.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-01-02 04:34
There was a long thread about this a few months ago, and the consensus seemed to be that the tonality we all admire comes from the acoustic design of the instrument rather than from the material. Makes sense to me, otherwise the Greenline wouldnt have the Buffet sound, and a metal clarinet would sound like a soprano sax.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-01-02 05:21
Hi, Brenda :]
I know zilch about rosewood and not much more about greenline material so, can't help with info about those at present. Apology....
Grenadilla is valued because it can be machined like metal and is soft enough not to torment the cutting tools. There are other hardwoods that might be good for fashioning woodwinds. I've mentioned here before that I used a piece of Japanese maple for a banjo fingerboard years ago. At least, the guy at the lumber store told me that's what it was. Recently I've been looking for some of the same kind of wood to turn barrels. The piece I used for the fingerboard was a light beige color and the hardest close grained stuff I've ever tried to work with. The grain seemed to swirl every which way and the hardness, it seemed to me at the time, was akin to mild steel. I don't know how it would have held up over time as the banjo was destroyed in a garage fire shortly after I 'restored' it :|Awww
I see no reason some woods beside blackwood wouldn't be suitable for making woodwind instruments. Many woods in the past did very well (notably boxwood), but some of those old horns now seem to have developed a severe tendency to warp and crack (maybe the wood wasn't adequately 'cured'?), while others of the lightwood variety I've seen are stable and play quite nicely.
Whatever the material, in today's world it has to be 'machinable' and 'cost effective'.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-02 05:28
Boxwood isn't suitable for today's instruments for two reasons: warping (as you noted) and because it's not mechanically suited (not strong enough) for all those machaniocal pieces we've added over the years. That's why grenadilla is so prevalent - it is dimensionally stable and it tough and strong enough to carry the hardware, even with a lot of holes drilled in it.
As to woods and instruments - instruments that couple to the air via a large vibrating surface (violins, acoustic guitars, pianos, etc.) do sound different using different materials because the materials <b>must</b> vibrate to produce sound. Woodwind instruments use a vibrating air column, not a vibrating piece of wood or other resonator to couple to the outside.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-01-02 13:31
Kevin and Brenda,
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck either. Check the many previous threads about the 'materials vs. sound' issue. A clarinet is not a guitar, nor is it a violin, harp, or piano, or any other instrument whose main sound-producing mechanism is the vibration of a thin, large-area surface of material. A clarinet body has very little surface area and is very thick in proportion to its bore and surface area. It can be readily calculated or demonstrated that the vibrations of a clarinet body are physically incapable of producing significant (audibly perceptible) sound pressure amplitude. Believe what you will --- the human talent for self-delusion (aka the 'placebo effect') is far stronger than most peoples' powers of rational thought. As I wrote before, don't believe me, read Benade. That's all I'm gonna say about it!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-02 14:38
The Symphonie VII and the Opus are both Leblanc's top-of-the-line clarinets and both have identical acoustics (according to Leblanc). Yet, they have very different tone qualities. I've been told that's because of the fact that the Opus is made of Grenadilla wood and the Symphonie VII is made of Rosewood. Now, if we did a blindfold test, it would be more difficult to tell the difference--but the Opus would more than likely still sound darker. I'll have to try that out at home on my husband and dog.
For some reason people have a hard time getting volume out of the Rosewood models (that was the reason I sold my last Symphonie VII). So, if the wood doesn't make all that much difference, why is the volume a problem with the same player, mouthpiece, reed, ligature combo?
I know we've hashed and rehashed--but this is not settled for me.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-01-02 16:20
Unfortunately, all tropical hardwoods are endangered species. It would be great if the "Greenline" and such innovative materials would be suitable for clarinet-making. It takes many, many years for tropical hardwoods to become large enough to use for instruments. One day, the trees will no longer be available. Has anyone (pros out there?) used a "Greenline"?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-01-02 16:33
Here is a site which claims that the present supply of grenadilla wood is plentiful, as the supply far outweighs the present demand. (half way down the page)
On another page on this site, it says that the optimum seasoning time for grenadilla wood is 8 years.
Are the majority of cracks in new instruments mainly due to improper seasoning and impatience by the major manufacturers? One has to wonder...GBK
http://www.braunflutes.com/eng/faq1.htm#W
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Author: Kate
Date: 2002-01-02 17:41
Yeah I bought (well, my parents did) a brand new Leblanc Symphony VII last year for my 16th birthday, but before I tried the Opus made from Grenadilla wood, and I could certainly tell the difference..... and I much preferred the rosewood as the tone was beautiful and certainly better than the student model Buffet B12 I had when I began. I don't think the Opus's sound was as nice, I dunno, maybe it's just how I was blowing. I do have to bore-oil the symphonie fairly often as mentioned before the rosewood is more prone to splitting - my friend's dad got one from America which wasn't sealed properly but he wouldn't listen to anyone's instructions when he got it and so it split right down the barrels.
I don't know what the future of clarinet making will involve, but i played a metal clarinet and it was AWFUL. Horrid sound, and it didn't sound at all like a soprano sax (cos i play the saxes as well), not that it's meant to. I don't think clarinets should be made from metal. Plastic is good for starting off, and then wood from when you become advanced; and rosewood for me beats grenadilla, and it looks nicer too. Leblanc's rosewood ones are few and far between - I have the only one in the county and no more have been ordered in partly due to the expense and lack of interest in it. But then again, this is only me, and i'm not some pro (as much I would love to be) and I don't make clarinets... I just enjoy playing and have invested in the instruments that suit me!
C ya!
Kate :-)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-01-02 18:15
Just some thoughts - the words seasoning and aging (other than chronological time) are about as informative as dark and bright when it comes to acoustical properties. There are several areas of the world with the right environmental conditions that have a large enough supply of "old growth" grenadilla wood to supply demand for wood instruments on a renewable basis (>100 year old trees) if the proper conservation techniques are employed.
Part of the problem of properly preparing wood is the current system of air drying in uncontrolled (other than the ambient temperatures and relative humidity of the storage site) and the length of time necessary, under these conditions, to reduce the moisture content and, through drying, stabilize the structure of the wood.
Modern freeze drying technology (removing water through sublimation from the solid to gaseous form) utilizing computer controlled temperature and vacuum water vapor removal to a trap can (there is research data available) remove water and stabilize hardwood billets in several weeks which should be compatible with production demand (the wood is not frozen but cooled). Through internal probes and experimentation with temperature cycling and plateau conditions the drying and stabilization process time can be dramatically reduced. Kiln drying techniques are not suitable for extremely hard, dense woods. The quality of the wood (density, tight graining, heartwood positioning, etc.) is another story and perhaps the quality of wood used in today's horns is not what it used to be. There are also chemical and structural rearrangements that take place in the wood matrix during long air drying regimes but structurally, modern technology dried woods are indistinguishable from aged (>5 years) hardwoods by microscopic analysis. Impregnation with plant derived oil before manufacture can also be monitored and controlled by other analytical techniques and a more consistent product produced.
The technology is present to produce raw wood for manufacture of instruments more quickly - it would cost money to modernize the process. The primary quality of the wood (and probably the cost to the manufacturer) is another issue.
The Doctor
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-01-02 19:54
Mr. P. Laubin, maker of many many fine oboes and a professional player himself, has said that he thinks that Honduran Rosewood sounds the best for oboes. While this discussion can go on forever, I listened carefully to a concert on a Greenline clarinet by a very great player and concluded that it didn't have the zing of a regular R13 whatever that means. As a result, I would be reluctant to buy a Greenline unless I lived in a very cold community. Happy New Year!!
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Author: Mary
Date: 2002-01-02 22:08
I have a rosewood Rossi and a grenadilla R13. They feel and sound and respond differently (I prefer the Rossi), but then I'm sure they also would if they were both grenadilla. The rosewood gets complimented often for its good looks, but for me the most obvious benefit is that it weighs significantly less- great for a tendinitis-ridden strap user like me.
I haven't had either of these clarinets crack, but I have had 3 R13s of recent times crack horrifically. Go figure.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-01-03 00:19
Wes wrote:
> listened carefully to a concert
> on a Greenline clarinet by a very great player and concluded
> that it didn't have the zing of a regular R13 whatever that
> means. As a result, I would be reluctant to buy a Greenline
> unless I lived in a very cold community. Happy New Year!!
Considering that yoiu listened to a sample size of exactly <b>1</b>, you'd not be using the greater portion of your intellect to remain reluctant to buy one. Listening to an even larger sample size of R13s I might come to the conclusion that they are out of tune and dull ...
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-01-03 00:34
I agree with Wes about the Greenline, but I've heard more than just one....
Francois et al had brought some to the business of a friend of ours, my husband liked them but I thought they didn't "ring" - that there was no real presence. Zing was a good word, Wes. My husband had his university buy an A for the school, which is probably a good use for one.
I just hope it's not one of those things where Buffet owners can't be objective...?! (Believe me, I live with one who will look for the Holy Buffet Grail until he dies...)
Lynn
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-01-03 00:39
BTW Terry says he just hopes we don't run out of all the good wood....think of how many third rate companies are using it for their third rate clarinets, oboes, etc.
Lynn
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-01-03 01:09
I love my Greenline R-13, but I can't compare the sound of the Rosewood Symphonie VII because it is entirely sweet all on its own. I agree that Greenline is a coming trend that should be encouraged. It takes the "worry" out of ownership. But, it's nice to have the Rosewood for certain things like solos.
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Author: willie
Date: 2002-01-03 05:36
I've heard several Rosewood clarinets in the past years and most (the better models) sounded great. It just saddens me to see them dyed black as the Rosewood in its natural finnish is so beautiful.
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Author: Josh
Date: 2002-01-03 15:14
i have never seen or heard of a rosewood instrument dyed black. Is part of the point of having a rosewood instrument not to look at that gorgeous wood?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-01-05 01:38
I see Greenline as a crude beginning. And it is still using grenadilla.
Surely design of plastic molecules is still in its infancy. If indeed the material of the instrument has acoustic significance (and that seems unlikely) then we may see in the future polymers whose molecules were taylor-made for a specific sound, rather than a hit-and-miss, try-this-and-that-timber approach. And you could specify any grain, colour, or other finish. After all we already have UNNATURAL matrerials that surpass natural ones in many applications: brass, steel, amalgam, teflon, kevlar, polyurethane, ........
GBK: Your URL leads to statements which seem rather at variance with the picture painted at the following site and its links, which I would be more inclined to trust.
http://www.blackwoodconservation.org/index.html#map
Omar: "modern technology dried woods are indistinguishable from aged (>5 years) hardwoods by microscopic analysis". Does this include tests to ascertain the residual stresses in the timber at macroscopic and microscopic levels?
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