 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jim
Date: 2001-12-28 14:37
My daughter is an 11 yr old beginner. She started with Mitchell Lurie # 3 reeds which were specified by the band director. Her band director is now advising all clarinet players to switch to Vandoren reeds, but did not specify strength. (And due to the Holidays, we cannot reach him to clarify.) I am guessing we should get # 3 Vandorens as well, but can anyone help us with a comparison of the strengths of these two brands of reeds.
Many thanks in advance
Jim
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2001-12-28 15:08
Vandoren makes regular and V12's. If you get Vandoren regular then roughly a 2.5 thickness would equate to a Mitchel Lurie 3. If you get Vandoren V12, then go for a 3 thickness.
My personal preference is V12.
By the way: I'm surprised that a beginner was started on a number 3 which is sometimes too stiff for beginners. But if she's getting a good sound out of it, then she should stay with it.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-12-28 16:40
Mitchell Luries are considerably softer than Vandorens of the same numerical strength (e.g. a Lurie #5-1/2 is about as stiff as a Vandoren #4) ---actually I'd say that a Lurie #3 is probably a pretty good choice for a beginner --- I wouldn't bother switching to Vandorens (if at all) until the player is somewhat more advanced. Unfortunately, many band directors (at all levels) are not terribly well informed about the clarinet, unless they happen to be clarinetists themselves, and even then they often have biases or preferences which are rather hard to justify.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-28 17:13
I agree with Dave...Vandoren reeds can be very fussy and horribly inconsistant. Advanced players learn how to adjust them and work on them to alleviate many of the problems. Of course, Vandoren reeds can hardly be beat when a great one is found. Your beginner may have a less stressful experience (for her and you) by staying on the Mitchell Luries for the time being.
Being a former band director, I never could understand "requiring" students to play on a certain brand of reed. The are MANY other factors which alter the clarinet sound even more than the reed. - (quality of mouthpiece, instrument condition/maintenance, physical abilities and most of all: the student's concept of a good tone)
By the way, the V12 Vandoren #3 reeds are slightly harder than the Mitchell Lurie #3's...GBK
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-12-28 18:18
My only question to this issue, for the band director, when he becomes available, would be, " Why"?
Stick with what works for your daughter until you have a satisfactory reason to change.
In the mouthpiece/reed department, one size does Not fit all :
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2001-12-28 19:54
I dont think the band director should make a decision on what brand is best for his clarinet section. reeds are a personal choice and one chooses what works best for them. If your daughter is happy with what shes using now, why change? If not and you want to try vandoren, I would suggest the V12 2.5's.
JL
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-12-28 20:34
I agree with GBK...Personally, I used Mitchell Lurie reeds when I began and I still think they're great for beginners. They are a great deal more consistent than Vandorens, which can be very exasperating for advanced players. I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner at all. V12s are also designed for advanced players.
A band director unilaterally telling all the clarinetists to switch to a different kind of reed does seem a little harsh...is this director a single reed played or is he a trombonist who just heard from someone that Vandorens are better?
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2001-12-28 21:17
Jim is looking for a straight answer and instead is being given an argument. If
the band director wants the section to use Vandorens then that is what he needs
to get.
Traditional Vandoren reeds (blue box) are slightly stronger than Mitchell Lurie, but
not by much. You may want to get a few 2.5 and a few 3 until she finds which is
most comfortable for her. You can also show her a trick. If the reed is too soft, she
can push it up slightly on the mouthpiece and if it is too hard, push it down slightly.
It seems that although this thread would be helpful if the father had a choice, it is
getting off track for a simple question of a non-clarinetist. As we reply to these
threads, we should look at what the question really is and try to answer
it in a way that makes sense to the person who asked it... leaving out extraneous
information... otherwise, we are not being at all helpful.
Good clarineting.
Kristen Denny
GTA: Clarinet, UNL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-28 22:54
Kristen D. wrote:
>
> Jim is looking for a straight answer and instead is being
> given an argument. If
> the band director wants the section to use Vandorens then that
> is what he needs
> to get.
No, Kristen, I believe as parents and players that we not only have a right, but an obligation to make teachers explain their choices - after all, it's ourr money, whether it's taxpayer or out-of-pocket. Some band directors require R13s for all their HS students - and what of those families that can't afford them? Things start out small and then can get out of proportion.
There may be good reasons for the change - but then again, there may not be. Let the parents ask some questions, get some answers, and then come back here to discuss things.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-12-29 00:37
I agree with Mark, Kristen. The band director is just flat out wrong on this one. Don't be afraid to question requirements like this - respectfully of course. If a private teacher made poor suggestions, would you not "fire" them and find a better teacher? Questioning the director using the advice of fine clarinetists represented here might make a more knowledgable teacher out of the band director.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-29 02:11
Fred wrote:
>
> The band director is just
> flat out wrong on this one.
The band director might <b>not</b> be wrong - but it's wise to ask the question.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-12-29 15:42
Mark, your posts are very analytical and I respect your opinions and thoughts. Keeping in mind that this is for an 11yr. old, and not just for her but for an entire clarinet section of like-aged young people, I can't imagine that wisdom would favor making Vandorens a requirement. However, I have reread the original post and have discovered that I fell into one of my common traps. According to the Jim (the Dad), Mitchell Lurie's were SPECIFIED, but Vandorens are now RECOMMENDED. While there might not be much of a distinction in the mind of an 11yr old, there is a difference nonetheless. I also don't know if the students are all playing on decent mouthpieces which is of far more concern that the reed preference stated in the post. I just don't like students (and therefore parents) being subjected to questionable instruction - whether it be from a band director or a math teacher. I am on a school board, and am rather sensitive to this kind of thing.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-29 15:57
Fred, without knowing the rationale we all fall into the trap of being absolutist. Sometimes the local music store supplies the needs and can kick something into the music department when the school buys certain accessories or supplies. It very well could be that buying Vandoren reeds allows the school to get something else - and since Vandorens are a good brand it may be a good deal - we just don't know. That's why I want the question raised - I see nothing wrong with those kinds of deals as long as there's no requirement to buy, just a request to buy.
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Author: jim
Date: 2001-12-29 22:29
Wow! Thank you all for the insightful comments. I can see that reed lore is going to be an acquired trait. The band director is, in fact, a trumpet player, so he may well be parroting someone else's reed bias. I do think I'll contact him after the holidays are over and pose some of the questions that have been raised in this thread.
Many thanks to all,
Jim
the Dad
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-30 05:09
Mark wrote:
"Sometimes the local music store supplies the`needs and can kick something into the music department when the school buys certain accessories or supplies. It very well could be that buying Vandoren reeds allows the school to get something else"
If this were the case (and I hope it isn't), for the band director (as a representative of the school) to recommend these reeds would be a conflict of interest and unethical unless the parents were clearly informed of the reason for the recommendation. Absent notification, IMHO, the only reason a teacher should ever recommend specific equipment or supplies to his/her students is that s/he believes, based on competent evidence, that it will further their development. Given that these are 11 year olds, I am inclined to agree with others who have indicated that Vandorens are probably too much reed for the kids at this point.
Based on personal experience with my daughter, I suspect that some of the kids (particularly those who got the "strong end of the box" might very well find #2 Vandoren regulars ( or 2 1/2 V12's) too stiff, even with a student mouthpiece.
Kirsten, if the point of your message is that we should try to show questioners enough respect to address their questions rather than assume that they have asked the wrong ones, then I couldn't agree with you more. On the other hand, if your point (as a future band director, perhaps?) is that band directors are Authority and that parents should never question their judgments, even when they seem wrongheaded, then, for the reasons Mark has stated, I couldn't agree with you less.
Best regards,
Jack Kissinger
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-30 06:02
Jack Kissinger wrote:
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> "Sometimes the local music store supplies the`needs and can
> kick something into the music department when the school buys
> certain accessories or supplies. It very well could be that
> buying Vandoren reeds allows the school to get something else"
>
>
> If this were the case (and I hope it isn't), for the band
> director (as a representative of the school) to recommend these
> reeds would be a conflict of interest and unethical unless the
> parents were clearly informed of the reason for the
> recommendation.
As long as it is explained and there's no extra cost involved, I think it's a "good thing" if music stores help out the local schools - it's good for the school and good for business. It's not unheard of and not unethical as long as it's expained beforehand and not required. I don't understand your " (and I hope it isn't)" comment, unless you're referring to the band director not telling the students.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-30 14:41
Mark Charette wrote:
"As long as it is explained and there's no extra cost involved, I think it's a "good thing" if music stores help out the local schools - it's good for the school and good for business. It's not unheard of and not unethical as long as it's expained beforehand and not required. I don't understand your " (and I hope it isn't)" comment, unless you're referring to the band director not telling the students."
I did indeed intend to refer to a situation where the band director did not notify the students. Thank you for pointing out the ambiguity. On the other hand, had your original message said anything about the importance of "prior notification" in a potential conflict of interest situation, I would not have sent my original message.
BTW, unless the music store has a special on Vandoren reeds, there will be extra cost involved. Vandorens typically are priced higher than Mitchell Luries, e.g., in the Fall/Winter WW&BW catalog, regular Vandorens cost 18% more than regular Mitchell Luries. (V12's cost 57% more but the band director didn't specify them.) As far as I'm concerned, however, in your hypothetical situation, if (1) the reason is explained as well as any difference in the quality of the reed (price differences are readily available public information, quality differences are much more difficult for nonplaying parents to evaluate), (2) the choice is optional (in substance as well as form), and (3) the band director discloses any relationship he might have with the music store (e.g., if s/he works there part time or gives lessons there), the recommendation is ethical. (Whether it's a good recommendation on other criteria is, of course, another issue.)
In neither of his messages, however, does Jim suggest that that the band director gave any reason for the recommendation. (Based on experiences with my daughter, I must suggest the possibility, however, that the band director did give a reason but the reason didn't make it home with the recommendation. ;^) ) Whatever his/her reason, however, I agree that parents have a right to know what it is so that they are in a position to evaluate the recommendation.
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2001-12-31 21:44
My previous post was not meant to imply that the band director is always right.
I apologize if it sounded that way. Yes, it's important to question "why the change?", but you want approach the director in a way that does not seem
defensive. Problems can arise if a parent "storms" into a director's office
"demanding" answers. It is very important to avoid damaging the relationship
between the director and student/parent. If you approach the director with sincerity
then you will get a sincere answer (hopefully). It seems to me that Jim is not
a "storming in" kind of parent.... I've seen the other kind, and it's not so pretty.
My main point to those who replied to Jim's original post was that we should try to
not "go over the head" of the person asking the question. Now that I have had time
to reread my original post, I can see how it sounded like I spoke with absolution
(ie. using terms like never, always, "absolutely" wrong or right, etc.) something else
we should all try to avoid...
Good clarineting...
Kristen Denny
GTA: Clarinet, UNL
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