 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-16 20:08
I'm sure that most of us don't like to admit it, but as a generality, clarinetists are a very competitive and often insecure group.
I wonder if any of us would comment on our feelings of jealousy and/or envy when we play with or encounter a colleague with more ability than oneself.
How does one cope with those feelings? Do they ever go away?
My students ask me this question all the time, and I am at a loss to explain it...GBK
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-12-16 21:23
I've played with clarinetists from all countries and levels of ability and it is the same. Every once in a while I play with someone that is generous and truly wants what is best for the whole orchestra/band. That person is a genuine treasure.
It's hard to have to work with someone who is totally self-centered and doesn't care whom they hurt to get to the top. I've found that if I just stay the course and do my best possible job while trying all the time to improve--it gets noticed. Eventually my turn comes around and I get the solo assignment.
Clarinetists have so much competition because there are so many of us. Dealing with a truly jealous collegue is a pain and a true challenge of character. I feel it is one of the great challenges of musicianship. I've gotten many jobs just because the director knows he/she won't have a problem with me and I can get along with others. That's what I try to express to young players.
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Author: sarah
Date: 2001-12-16 23:38
I don't feel jealousy toward people that are better than me. (although I would like to have perfect pitch--lol) Those people have worked very hard and deserve their positions (usually). I am happy for them.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-12-17 00:13
It's more of a student thing than a clarinet thing. I can tell you that it is DEFINATELY a waste of time.
Now that I am a professional, I look forward to the opportunity to play with great players, whether they are 'better' than me or not. It's hard to learn anything from players who are far worse. . .and it's boring to play with such people.
It is hard to shut down the natural instinct to look for flaws in somene who plays very well, but it is far more interesting to simply appreciate their greatness.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Carmen Izzo
Date: 2001-12-17 03:32
I personally, as an advancing student enjoy working with players above and below my ability level. I feel the better players i can learn from, and I love helping and advising a player whom i feel can do some improvement (all of us in honesty).
~Carmen
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-17 03:52
My god - that's not just for clarinetists, just about anyone who goes through a Conservatoire encounters problems associated with fellow-students who play better. I studied at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama (London) with the late Nanny Jameison ... she had a great attitude ... if any of the "better" students made discouraging remarks ... she'd make them play their scales (the most difficult ones) by themselves, in front of the whole class. It soon stopped the bitching - regardless, the atmosphere was great and I found most of the students quite nurturing. I say you need to "learn" from your peers just as much as from your teachers.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2001-12-17 03:52
I suspect you could delete "clarinetists" and substitute "musicians." I am of the opinion that vocalists have us beat in the competitive and insecure department.
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-17 03:54
Brenda - you are so right about this ... I'm music director of a small, amateur muscial society, and as such, I get to hire the orchestra. Let me tell you, I much prefer players who "get along" with me (and the rest of the orchestra) in the pit than the virtuoso highly strungs. I'm a "reformed" clarinettist, changed to viola and then eventually gave up professional music making. I know work my butt of for an engineering company and "do music" as a hobby. I love it.
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Author: diz
Date: 2001-12-17 03:57
Och - Jim, that bit hard. But I guess I tend to agree, being a "conductor" and reformed clarinetist - I work with singers ... they certainly can have their heads in the clouds.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2001-12-17 04:40
Actually, I agree with those who claim that clarinetists are particularly prone to this. To me, the best solution for players who are thrown together regularly is to start playing together on duets or chamber music. This will help to channel rivalry into friendship if the parties involved are fairly reasonable.
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-12-17 04:41
Brenda hit it right on. Even in the amateur ranks with the semi prof. orgs. Someone will come in and try to sweep it out. Within a few months, they think they should play first and play first all the time. Now you're at a crossroads here. If the conductor puts them there (because of the whining and maybe, just maybe, some gender priorities and it's happened to me), then it's time to go looking elsewhere as this conductor is not thinking for the good of the whole org. re. diz first post. This has happened to me several times and I've packed up and left. I'm in this for the fun of it and don't need the BS. In fact, I consider myself a fairly good clarinetist/bass cl., and my only musical resolution is that I don't play for money. That will take the fun out of it. If I can handle the part and I have been in the org for a good amount of time, then the other person can play second. If they don't like it, they can pack. On the other hand, I have had other players come in and play second who are better than me. Sometimes they have worked with me on certain things. Sometimes I've shown them a thing or two. Jealousy??? If the other person is a decent sort, then jealousy probably won't even occur. Sometimes we can swap parts and that's OK. Everyone's going to encounter someone who is better. My general feelings are that amateur/semi-pro musicians are pretty cut-throat and if that's the way they want it, then that's their problem. It's not worth the hassle. However, in the professional ranks, that might be a different story. Sorry about that. I guess you have to make up your mind if you want to enjoy playing or just "get down and dirty". I know a very good conductor who doesn't have recordings or doesn't listen to music recreationally. I never want to get to that point.
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2001-12-17 05:43
When you encounter jealously and envy you just strive to make yourself better. As the saying goes, "don't get mad, get even." Don't worry about whose better than who. We all have our weaknesses, but we can improve on them.
Good luck,
Kim L.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-12-17 08:07
Having recently graduated form high school i'm fully aware of the jealous and envy found in the musical world i find it's easier to be friends with fellow musicans than enemies, after all if by chance you get beat out in an audition it's much easier to lose to a humble friend than an arrogant enemy! I've been fortunate to find myself in situations where i'm either the best, one of the best, or the people who are better than me are really really sweet!
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-12-17 13:01
Without getting into all type of psycho-babble, let's just accept the fact there are those who are arrogant, those who are easily cowed, those who are competitive and aggressive and those who are not (or are less so).
Jealousy and envy are just emotional reactions to a given situation. An individual can take that same situation and use it as a motivator rather than an excuse to sulk. It all depends on the level of one's maturity and how they approach various life's "challenges."
Like many other aspects of life, we can make lemons or lemonade.
Now....to quote Mark M: "and my only musical resolution is that I don't play for money. That will take the fun out of it."
Gee.....to make such a comment shows your deep understanding of not only professional musicians but of all people who actually go out and work--for money, no less!
Or else, it only exhibits your ignorance of what motivates those in any profession to do what they do. It's often not just the money. Frankly, I don't know anybody who decided on becoming a professional musician for the money.
Certainly, there are those (and plenty, I'm sure) who do not enjoy (aka-have any fun) what they do in their chosen profession, musicians included. However, to cover all professional musicians--those who actually get paid!--with a blanket statement such as the above is nothing more than silliness.
Really, now--can one only have "fun" if they participate in a given activity as a hobby or a volunteer or an amateur?
Hardly.
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Author: B.F.
Date: 2001-12-17 14:14
Wow. This really sheds light on the one and only orchestra experience I had!!!! I thought it was just me!!!!! Thank you, people, for giving me some perspective. The other clarinetists in the orchestra were so bloody mean to me, and I could just NOT figure it out. Not because I was better, of course, but because I was new and inexperienced. Whew! Almost turned me off to clarinet.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-12-17 15:05
I'm lucky. At my level (just beginning) I have no jealousy or envy for another player. I glad for where they are and wish them the best. i'm glad of where I'm because I'm better then I was a year ago and will be better next year if I live that long.
When people are jealous or have envy of others that is thier problem not yours. They are heavy loads to carry.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-12-17 15:08
Never bothers me--I just play louder, and better!!! (at least in my own mind)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-12-17 16:24
I don't remember ever being jealous or envious of another player. I admire other players for their abilities, no matter what 'level' they may be. If they're 'better' than I, I know I can learn from them. If they're having difficulty with something, I look for a way to be helpful. If they have an 'attitude' they won't last long enough to be concerned with it.
Had the subject of this post included 'Admiration', I would admit to admiring Brenda's outlook. I must be fortunate because 99% of all the clarinetists I've known have been wonderful to me. Whenever possible, I have aspired to pass it along.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2001-12-17 16:57
i like playing next to someone who is better than me because i can learn from them. However, i dont like a show off ...even if they are good. In my opinion, if youre a superb player people will know it, it doesnt have to be announced to the whole section.
JL
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Author: robert
Date: 2001-12-17 20:40
i play in a pretty good high school band and one of the seniors that graduated a few years back, went on to the Connecticut conservatory and quit because of the pressure and strain from the other players. really sad but the way things are is the way things are. I find that even in a high school band players are reluctant to admit someone's better, a show of arogance if you will, and those people won't offer help or offer to play a duet or what not. Oh well.
Robert
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Author: Pam
Date: 2001-12-17 22:22
It's out there, to be sure. I'm glad to have the church orchestra that I am involved with. While many of our musicians are excellent (many have music degrees and teach in many of our local schools) the competitiveness just isn't as strong. In my case, my section leader is also my private instructor on clarinet so he knows my strengths and weaknesses and after around 2 years of lessons with him, he trusts me to fill in for him when he is not able to be there. Otherwise, at this point, many times I play the second part for balance in the section more than a pecking order kind of thing. Our section is 3-4 people this year with the other two being not as strong of players.
Another good thing about our lesson time together, when we play duets in that situation I get to play first and he plays second. Some good duets are not so much one strong part and one weaker part but an interwoven mix of back and forth type of leading.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-12-17 23:25
Jealousy and envy is obviously among also-runs. Nobody feels jealousy or envy for a person who is out of his reach by any chances or means: No violinist envies Heifetz, just adores him. In case of clarinet, the problem is the fact there seems not so much difference between the superiors and the mediocres to the ears of the mediocres.
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-12-18 00:47
When I auditioned at the Cleveland Institute of Music, this was exactly one of the questions they asked in the interview. (i.e., how do we handly jealousy of another, higher-level player.)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-18 01:01
Exactly my reason for posing the initial question in this post...
Suzanne...How DID you answer that question in the interview? ...GBK
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2001-12-18 01:31
I have never encountered as much envy and general nastiness than I have in listening to dancers talk to each other. We may say "So and so doesn't deserve that spot, I do because I have better technique/tone/etc." I have heard in multiple occasions "She shouldn't have gotten that part, she's too fat for it," (gasp! she weighs 110!) not that "she can't dance it well." To me, this is even meaner.
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Author: Danielle
Date: 2001-12-18 02:44
I agree with the people who say that dancers and singers can be very jealous and nasty-in my experience, music people are the nicest, but I was the only music major in my bunk at summer camp, and the girls who danced and sung were a lot less nice than my friends in the jazz band.
The most jealousy-inducing experience I've had? When the 12 year old who has his lesson after mine was in the room with myself and my teacher, watching me pack up, sees my NYSSMA solo, and comments, "i've been playing that piece since i was 10!" (i'm fourteen now). My teacher reassured me that he didn't play the piece very well...but STILL!
Geez!
Danielle
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Author: MA
Date: 2001-12-18 03:17
In the many groups I've been in, there has been jealousy at times, but if its handled carefully it can be worked out. The conductor should be watching for this
as well and nip some situations before they get out of hand. But some church situations can be worse. You'll always have the person that's been there forever that thinks his/her divine right is the first part no matter what they sound like. And
a new member who is a good player doesn't stand a chance in a situation like this
unless the the Director is on top of it.
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2001-12-18 05:51
You are all such nice people! I am afraid that I have been one of those jealous and envious clarinetists. I wish I could go back in time and change some of the stupid things I have done because of these two undesirable qualities.
In response to GBK's questions, it is definitely possible to change. One of the things that has helped me, is to realize that people do not like me better because I play the clarinet well or better than someone else. In fact, most people who know me and I think like me, have never even heard me play the clarinet. Something I heard in church yesterday, I think is also helpful in this situation. That is that we should be working to improve ourselves, not to be better than other people.
If you are in the opposite situation, i.e., dealing with the jealous player, though it will probably be hard, you might try treating them especially nice, and maybe they may actually soften and become a friend.
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Author: Jean S.
Date: 2001-12-18 06:33
It seems to me that people that say nasty, jealous things are insecure. They try to make themselves feel better by putting other people down. There is a lot of competition in dance and music, so they both fiields have their share of insecure people. Unfortunately, musicians and dancers usually have to work together, so even one jealous person can do a lot of damage.
If you have ever felt jealousy, you know that is not a very nice feeling. I use to tell my son that the person must have been feeling really awful inside, or they wouldn't have been able to say such ugly or mean things.
My son is a college freshman this year. He claims that all the freshman clarinet performance majors are nice, smart and talented. He says that they all respect each other! He also says that he is impressed by everyone in his studio! I think he is very lucky!
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Author: Bob
Date: 2001-12-18 16:20
I haven't read all the responses and this is one of the few bb messages I've had that reaction to. I don't agree with the expressed "generality" re clarinetists. I assume your students are relatively young and if they, as a group, have feelings of jealousy about fellow clarinetists who are better musicians than they then I feel sorry for them. I won't express my feelings about what they need.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-12-18 16:52
I don't believe I have ever been jealous or envious of any other clarinet player, although I have admired many. Perhaps this has to do with my cultivation of my own style of play, and I've been able to do this partly through avoiding situations where a "uniform" playing style is required (e. g., symphonic playing). While I enjoy almost any musical genre, my professional playing has been limited to dance and Jazz, which suits me because I can be myself to a much greater degree. Surely, nobody else plays my personal style better than I do, so there's no reason to be upset about how well anyone else plays, even if someone can play rings around me in any manner that is foreign to my own style. That just allows me to enjoy someone else's playing, knowing that I wouldn't want to do it that way. I greatly admire symphonic players, partly because they are doing something I never could handle successfully. And I love to be a very important part of a symphony orchestra -- a listener. But when it comes to playing a clarinet, I most enjoy sounding like me. And you don't want to do that anyway, which is just fine.
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-12-18 21:43
I said the truth--that I do have those feelings sometimes, but I try to do my best to turn them around for good. See if I can learn something from that player, and remind myself that I can trust God that He has called me to be a musician for right now, and I can trust Him and not worry about the competition. For me, this really how I handle it. I think I also mentioned that if the person is a super player but being snotty about it, I try and be really nice back, because maybe that person feels insecure and needs to be encouraged. When you give people what they need, things get happier.
I really can't understand those who have never felt these feelings, to be honest, unless they are totally in music for fun rather than profession? Because, it sure is competitive out there in the professional world, and the feelings are bound to arise when the quest for jobs come up... I think I have been very blessed at my current grad school, though, because the studio is just full of amazing players, and we are all very supportive of one another. It is great.
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Author: Ted Donaldson
Date: 2001-12-19 01:30
Me? Get Jealous? No... JK Everyone can't be unjealous all the time, i mean come on! Someone is always better than you, and there is always a better clarinet than yours!!! I mean come on... When i have been playing since 3rd grade, and when i get to band (playing bass) and see horribley annoying kids getting 1st and 2nd chair, it makes me pull my hair (i'm talking soprano of course, i gaurd first chair like a... Shark O_o) Oh well....
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-12-19 01:50
I'm always good friends with my competition, even from other schools. I don't care how much better they are or how much better than I am. They're like family, and I teach and learn from all groups, even people worse than I am. It makes this so-called "competition" more fun.
It's when I don't make special honors (Like my recent All-State tryout) that I don't like competition.
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Author: Cut throat clarinetist
Date: 2001-12-20 16:16
My therapist says those of you who claim to have never been jealous or envious of another player are probably not being totally honest! Come on, you have never felt the slightest bit of envy? Maybe you have always been the best where you were at so you never had any reason to be jealous or perhaps, you were happy sitting second chair while someone else played the beautiful solo you wanted to play. Of course, if I'm seeing a therapist I'm probably nuts and since he is a therapist he mostly deals with "abnormal" people, so what would he know about normal feelings?
I am not advocating jealousy and envy. By all means, we should try to avoid having those fellings and especially avoid acting on them, but there is nothing wrong with admitting that we sometimes wish that we could play as well as another clarinetist, even though we may admire or appreciate their talent.
Do we really want young clarinetists to believe that occassionally feeling jealousy or envy is "abnormal"? They are not pleasant feelings, but they are quite common and certainly aren't abnormal. Some of you have offered some good suggestions on how to deal with it. Perhaps, there are more of you out there who have suggestions that will help to deal with this.
Now, of course, you all hate me, but I'll just have to take that up with my therapist at the next session.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-12-20 16:27
Sometimes it is better to not play the first chair part in a concert band because of responsibilities and diversions. I play the second stand first clarinet parts in a very fine 80 person non-school concert band in a large major city and I find that I prefer that seat to any other, especially as the real solo parts in the band are not frequent. The real challenge is to match section pitches, to play musically any part, and to have a good time.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-12-20 17:34
I don't see where anyone addressed the fact that this jealousy and envy business is more often a result of a person's ego, and, generally, no group I know of has greater egos than those who are, or would be artists. It usually comes with the territory. Like, what makes clarinet players so picky about their reeds?
This includes clarinetists, dancers and singers, as groups that have already been discussed, but it’s not specific to them.
Perhaps, if it does, it strikes dancers and singers more acutely because they are, in fact, physically their instrument, as opposed to someone who plays an instrument that is detached from their body, as it were. So perhaps it's even more personal to them.
A twinge of "jealousy and envy" handled in the proper way is not such an unhealthy thing. Knowing someone else was better at something that I wanted to be the best at always drove me to improve and "reach for the stars." That's often where healthy competition comes from. I didn’t always reach my proposed goals, but I sure got pretty darn good trying!
If we did not know how much better someone else was, we would have a tough time knowing how much better we wanted to be.
I had the same thing going with my teachers and superiors. Every time someone has told me something I did was not up to snuff, or not as good as someone else's, it just made me want to show that I could do just as well as anyone else, or better. And the only way to do so was to get in there and improve at whatever it was I was doing at the time.
People who allow themselves to be eaten away by emotions like jealousy and envy develop very negative feelings, which lead to very negative actions, which are detrimental to the person harboring them. A veritable chain reaction and a fine recipe for self-destruction.
Those are the people who have problems like a few years ago, where an ice skating star caused another to get seriously injured; or the cheer-leader thing in Texas where one cheer-leader's mother tried to cause (did she actually get it done?) the death of another cheer-leader. I don't remember exactly how it went, but I do remember it made national headlines.
In Oriental wisdom there is an old lesson that says:
"To know patience means to not allow the "Seven Emotions" to rule your mind. Hate, adoration, joy, anxiety, anger, grief, and fear are detrimental to our well being and, as such, we must learn to control them. If we do not give way to them, we are then said to be on our way to being patient. Once we achieve this patience, we can begin to understand all things and become one in harmony with eternity."
Rough translation, but I daresay it also applies to jealousy and envy, which can be classified under one, or more, of the “Seven Emotions.” It's only after we set aside those emotions that we can begin to legitimately work towards improving ourselves without losing time and energy to ill daydreams, ill psychological effects and lost time lapses brought on by the negative side of those emotions.
If you practice music with ill thoughts about someone else, the only thing that will improve is your ability to harbor ill emotions. If you practice with the thought of improving so you can become the very best that you can be, then you will do well. Even if your goal is to be better than someone else, as long as the feeling is competitive, not negative, and you don’t dwell on it.
Hey Larry, you did so well in the first two paragraphs plus one line, but after that you stepped on your tongue again.
Mark M did not say that playing music for money was not fun, period. He said, "...my only musical resolution is that I don't play for money. That will take the fun out of it." The key words here are "my" and “I.” He did not say that no one who played for money could or couldn't have fun doing so.
What he said was that he, personally, did not find it fun to play music for money. And you called him ignorant!
Frankly, I also didn't find it "fun" to mix making music with making money, but that does not mean that I don't think anyone else can't either.
But then again, judging from some of your past remarks, you probably think that the type of music I make isn't music anyway. "Go figure!"
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Author: ginny
Date: 2001-12-20 21:40
I am never jealous - that is my evil twin.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-21 00:24
Peter wrote:
> Frankly, I also didn't find it "fun" to mix making music with
> making money, but that does not mean that I don't think anyone
> else can't either.
I had a hell of a run at it - making money and playing music.
BTW - the operant was "will" in the quote before, not "take my fun", but "will take the fun".
> But then again, judging from some of your past remarks, you
> probably think that the type of music I make isn't music
> anyway. "Go figure!"
Peter, judging from a number of <b>your</b> posts I could come to some pretty strange conclusions, but I figure that they just <b>couldn't</b> be true ...
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