 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alta
Date: 2001-12-12 15:05
I'm trying to play altissimo C# and go down to B (above the staff), only going down 2 notes. There is always a grunting sound on the way down to the B. No problem going the other way, B to C#. I've tried all kinds of things and the best thing I can do (but it still doesn't completely get rid of this awful sound) is to have my fingers very close to the instrument. I've tried tightening up my fingers and sort of snapping them into position and sometimes that works, but mostly not.
Any ideas? I have a lesson today and I feel like I've been struggling with this B major scale forever. Now, I don't mind the struggle but I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with it.
Thanks for your help.
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Author: drew
Date: 2001-12-12 15:29
Try "half-holing" your left index finger for the C# rather than removing your finger from the hole completely. This technique requires either a "roll" or "slide" motion.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-12-12 15:44
Try playing C# as thumb, register and two lower side keys.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-12 16:30
Try playing C# as: register key only (no thumb) 123/123 Eb
( R xxx / xxx Eb) ...GBK
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-12-12 19:47
While the above mentioned fingerings can work (depending on tempo and context, naturally), the first thing you must ask yourself is if a given fingering tunes well and matches the tones above and below it (for my taste--or ear!--neither of these fingerings stand up well using that criteria). Of course, many will 'fudge' with so-called 'alternate' fingerings in rapid technical passages...but you should not avoid the generally accepted "standard" fingering to get around whatever technical deficiency you might have right now. Better to back way off the tempo in your practicing and be very careful and methodical with the fingers, keep the air constant and well supported and make sure that your embouchure is functioning correctly and your tongue position is optimal. Obviously, there can be variables other than the fingering that is causing you this problem. Perhaps your teacher will be able to pinpoint the trouble at your lesson.
The bottom line is that often things takes a little longer than usual to get right! Keep at it!
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Author: Tim Raczek
Date: 2001-12-12 21:04
<b>Larry is right on the money.</b> Tough fingering changes need to be worked at and they come in time. Learning these smoothly will pay off in the long run.
Work at it <b>slowly, really slowly</b>. Try using dotted rhythms going back and forth between the two notes. Then reverse the notes and keep rhythm the same. Work very slowly. Make the short note of the pair like a grace note. Don't go back to a smooth rhythm until you can go both ways with ease. Stay at the slow tempo. Bring the tempo faster bit by bit.
You may find that once you have this combination licked in a slow tempo, you will have a much easier time getting the cleanliness each time you move that metronome up a notch. Don't worry about getting it all done at one sitting. Work at the pefection and cleanliness of the fingering at the slow tempo. Do not speed up a notch until you have it clean and smooth.
<b>Breath support</b> - make sure it is there for all of this.
Check the <b>other fingers of your hands (and your hands)</b>, that they are not pressing a key even slightly open. I found recently that my right hand little finger would at times barely rest over the F#/C# key (opening it just a pinch) and this would cause poor response from some notes higher than C above the staff. So check what the rest of your hand is doing.
Good luck in overcoming this hurdle. It will be worth it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-12 21:08
The alternate fingering that I suggested was not meant to be a technical substitute for the "standard" C# fingering. Technique involving notes above and below C# can easily be solved with diligent and careful practice techniques. There are many exercises and passages from the standard exercise books which I could recommend if so needed. This basic skill MUST be mastered in your practice sessions.
However, the particular C# alternate fingering which I cited is actually quite full and has a better tonal quality than the standard C#. There is much less resistance in attack and the response of this particular fingering is very secure. There are many cases in the standard literature where this fingering is a better choice than the traditional one.
It is very wise to have a few alternate fingerings in your arsenal for cases when the standard fingering, for any variety of reasons, is not sufficient...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-12-12 21:29
Another possibility to consider:
As Tom Ridenour points out in his book of fingerings, sometimes grunting in the upper clarion register is caused by a register key that is opening too far. Since the grunting is not common throughout the range in your case, the probability that this is your problem may fairly low. However, given the ease of checking it out, I think it's worth eliminating as a possibility.
If the your register key appears to open pretty wide, take a small piece of paper, fold it a few times and place it between the cork on your register key and the body of your clarinet. This should have the effect of reducing the gap between your pad and your tone hole when you open the register key. Make the paper thick enough to reduce the opening to around 1 - 1.5 mm for starters. Now try playing from C# to B. If the grunting still occurs, the register key is probably not the problem. If the problem goes away, however, the next step is to find the minimum degree of opening that still allows a clear throat Bb. The ultimate "fix" in this case may be a cork pad and a slightly thicker key cork. You may want to involve a repair tech at this point.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2001-12-13 00:15
My teacher who plays on an R13 had his register tube shortened to eliminate the grunting.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-12-13 03:01
Perhaps Mr. GBK and I might agree to disagree on a point or two?
First, at least in reference to the original poster's question, I believe the problem was within the context of a B major scale. That was the primary reason behind my assertion that the fingerings mentioned were, in my opinion, inappropriate.
While I most certainly agree that we must learn and cultivate an "arsenal" (as good a term as I could ever come up with!) of alternate fingerings (and I'll leave the term "alternate" to the semanticists) we must also be judicious in how we utilize them. Often a fingering is employed due to its technical ease with no regard given to its tonal and pitch character. Simply put, I wouldn't advise heading down this road.
Also, let's keep in mind that, due to differences in equipment, training and preferences, our opinions and usage on matters such as these are quite subjective. While GBK states "the particular C# alternate fingering which I cited is actually quite full and has a better tonal quality than the standard C#," I find a completely different sensation. My experience is that rather than fullness, that particular fingering is rather shallow with a preponderance of highs and lack of depth to the sound, especially when compared to the pitches surrounding it in the scale. Again, what is "better" is subjective. While I agree that there is less resistance in the attack and the response is, indeed, secure, one can effect the same result in the so-called standard fingering with practice. That's what control is all about, isn't it?
The other issue I personally have with that particular fingering is that of its pitch (I don't like the way it tunes). Again, that will vary depending on one's equipment and performing environment. But occasionally we will need different fingerings--such as this one--to adjust to others (like in a chord, perhaps).
This is my criteria for the use of any fingering: sound (tonal matching, beauty, etc.) and pitch (if it's out of tune, it's out of tune!). This is why I (and my colleagues, also) choose not to utilize this fingering.....
.....but, hey.....one never knows what tomorrow might bring!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-12-13 04:36
Larry...I think we are both basically saying the same thing, perhaps in different words.
I agree that the traditional fingerings are the "building blocks" of clarinet technique. The notes that approach and leave a particular note will always dictate the particular fingering choice . In the original posted question, the finger change to the traditional C# fingering must be learned in a slow diligent manner until the switching is seamless.
As for the "alternate" C# fingering: This is a strong "weapon" (arsenal? Wow this is starting to sound like war) to have at your disposal. On those occasions when a soft secure attack, or a particularly covered sound is needed, it is certainly a choice to consider. Aside from some of the obvious places to use this fingering (Poulenc- Sonata / Debussy - Premiere Rhapsody) I particularly like to use it in the opening woodwind section blending in Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet, as the response and attack are perfect -especially since one is using A clarinet)
However (there is always a however), PITCH IS CRITICAL. Never use an alternate fingering without seeing if there is a significant trade off in pitch. Use a tuner in your practice sessions, and note the strengths and weaknesses of "alternates"
Finally, not all equipment set-ups permit the same alternate fingerings. What works for one of us, may not work for someone else.
Good discussion...GBK
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-12-18 10:20
Yes! Laura- i agree...
i'm a professional clarinet player/teacher and i spent years chasing this kind of problem- especially on the E flat clarinet. I got a sackful of advice from great teachers/players that didn't actually help- it's all good advice (the postings above are great, i mean it) but i'll bet you 10$ that Laura is on the money with this one.
I went back to the lessons i had with Dr David Etheridge, and realised that although he had never actually talked with me about this particular point, many of the exercises he had me do effectively ensured that my throat remained open and relaxed. By (years later) "re-living" my old lessons from him, and finding other ways to get my throat relaxed (but ensuring that i maintained the focus in my sound, embochure and support + high airspeed etc) i have more or less overcome this problem. I'm too tired now (it's late at night) to write more, but if you're interested in the specific ways i've worked on this, email me....
nzdonald
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