 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-12-09 20:23
Hello Everyone,
Having heard playing and having studied with clarinetists from different main clarinet schools (german, french ..etc), I have noticed that there were significant difference in volume between german and french players. German player tend to play much softer than french players. It's also true that while comparing a wurlitzer setup (with the viotto N1 mp) with a buffet setup (RC + vandoren B45lyre), that the buffets are much louder when blowing with the same pressure.
Ok, I personally like german sound more but I like being able to use lot's of dynamics.
This has made me come to the conclusion that the darker your tone is the less loud you can play.
Can someone tell me that I'm wrong and that there is a perfect set up which includes the two ?
Any technical explanation would also be welcome.
Wurlitzers are cylindrical (am I right ?) and buffet RC is polycylindrical. Wurlitzers have a larger bore that buffets. Which of these parameters influence the quality of tone and the volume ? I know for example also that english players who play 1010s or peter eaton play less loud than french players and that these english instrument do have a larger bore than standard french clarinets.
But it may also have something to do with mouthpieces. I have myself bought a viotto N1 which I use on my RCs. I play much softer with it than on my previous vandoren B45lyre. But at the end the RCs with the N1 were louder than the wurlitzers with the same mouthpiece.
Thank's for answers
Best wishes
Daniel Bouwmeester
Delft (Holland)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-12-09 22:24
I always thaught that the main reason why German instruments sounded softer is because most MPs used on German system are closer and you have to use harder reeds. It's usually compensated by a more focused sound that blends thru anyway in orchestra playing.
Another reason is size and placing of the tone holes that I think are smaller and put higher on German instruments. There are also more tone holes than on a French cl.
I just came back from Berlin after a workshop between our ww players and the Berlin Phil. ww players. Wenzel Fuchs plays a viennese style MP that has an extremely small tip opening using hard reeds and his sound is not at all loud but very focused. The only thing we actually talked about concerning differences between the two was blending. We agreed on that only clarinet players can actually hear a difference and are also the only ones who care and making a fuzz about it.
I have no good explenation why you experience that much difference in volume when you play your N1 on the two different instruments.
On my French setup I use a Vandoren M15 (close) with V-12, 4 1/2. On German a Zinner (closer) that plays comfortably with Black Master 3 1/2. Pressurewise they feel the same.
I do have the feeling that the French has much more volume but less focused than the German.
Alphie
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: werner
Date: 2001-12-10 05:51
Wurlitzer clarinets are polycylindrical too.
Jochen Seggelke writes in
"Clarinet Playing in Germany":
Publicized in The Clarinet Volume 28, Number 1, December 2000
the following:
"Players and makers like Herbert Wurlitzer now tried to solve these problems by making narrower bores (14.6 mm) and smaller tone hole openings. The clarinet became softer, darker, easier to handle and better in tune when played mezzoforte. This has become the new standard for the German clarinet."
This article is online here:
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/deutsch/publications/claringerm/lit_ClarGer_01.htm
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-12-10 07:57
i'd like to make a note on the "open mouthpiece- louder sound" topic.... i mentioned in an earlier posting that i didn't think that there was much to be gained (volume wise at least) from having a tip opening much larger than 1.1mm. Anyone (expert or novice) is welcome to disagree with me as my theory has not been comprehensively tested and is little more than anecdotal, BUT Mr Greg Smith from the Chicago Symph did take the time to email me to say he agreed with me on this.
Last Saturday i worked on mouthpieces for a very fine Australian player who works in NZ, and he went over a large number of mouthpieces and facings (i noted this in a reccent posting on Gigliotti mouthpieces). All the mouthpieces he tried were between 1.05mm and his own one, a B45Lyre that measured 1.25mm on my guages. He generally sounded a bit louder on anything over 1.1mm until i gave him a reed that suited the closer facings.... overall his general volume didn't change much- although he found the differing levels of resistance quite noticable. It seemed to me that he FELT he had less sound but actually sounded about the same. Of course the interior dimensions of the mouthpiece make a huge difference.
My own mouthpiece (refaced from a Zinner blank) is about 1.1mm, and i have to say that my sound is a bit louder/bigger than when i used a close facing, and maybe a bit less focussed, but not by much. I have two Wurlitzer mouthpieces that fit on to one of my barrels (they don't play in tune with a Buffet clarinet but make a great tone). On them, i can make a very big and clear sound that i like very much- pity about the intonation.
One comment on close German mouthpieces- if they are made with the concavity on the table that Herr Zinner uses on his French blanks, then doesn't the reed flex away from the mouthpiece tip as the ligature is tightened? Doesn't that make, effectively, a wider tip opening? So a 1mm opening might actually be as much as 1.05, comparable with a Vandoren 5RV?
nzdonald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: werner
Date: 2001-12-10 17:23
5 minutes ago I went into our bathroom.
Breathed against the mirror.
Then pushed the table of my German system
Zinner crystal mouthpiece into the moisture.
Left it there. It didn't fall of. It didn't slide down.
Two absolute flat surfaces of glas with a tiny
bit of water between them. No concavity.
I never heard about concavity on German mouthpieces.
Anyone?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-12-10 23:28
Since the ear is very sensitive to overtones it's difficult to say what is actually volume and just a lack of overtones. What I mean is that a close opening/hard reed would sound less penetrating to the ear and just because of that give the impression of a softer sound, vs. a large opening/soft reed would have more overtones and appear to be louder.
All German MPs listed by Zinner or Vandoren have an opening span of 0.80-1.00 mm, vs. the French start at 1.03 mm. and gets bigger.
On a big opening the volume is regulated by a big air flow with a lot of overtones from the softer reed that produces a bright sound and on a close opening the lack of air flow has to be compensated by a higher pressure that itself gives a more "focused" and darker sound since the harder reed doesn't produce so many overtones. A difference in volume might just as well be an illusion.
The chamber of a German MP is also smaller and more conical than a French and this might also have something to do with it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-12-11 01:51
Wie gehts Werner- as far as i know all the Zinner french model mouthpiece blanks have quite a large concavity on the table... as do the Wurlitzer mouthpieces i have seen (two i own and two that belong to a friend).... the W mouthpieces are German bore and interior dimensions.... from this i assumed that German craftsmen used this technique (as do a number of mouthpiece craftsmen who work on French mouthpieces). On most French style mouthpieces this is quite subtle but the Zinners seem to have a huge concavity- i have often wondered if he intends this to be on the "final product" after the mouthpiece blank has been finished, i understand that a number of refacers try to do as little as possible to the blank Zinner makes.
I personally don't use a mouthpiece with a concavity on it, but know a number of very good players who do. Interesting to hear that your Zinner has no concavity- maybe Jochen Seggelke knows something about this, i had always assumed that many German mps used this, but now i can't remember where i got that idea...... hmmmmm
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: werner
Date: 2001-12-11 06:09
Danke Donald. Es geht mir gut.
Aber ein bischen Urlaub in Neuseeland wäre
jetzt nicht schlecht. Es ist gerade ziemlich kalt hier.
Thanks for your information about concavity on
French style Zinner mouthpieces. What do you think
about following idea:
Some materials (wood, plastic) aren't as stable as
other materials (glas, metal). So the flat table of an
wooden mouthpiece might become slightly convex
over the years. (I am talking about a lot of years here.
My oldest Zinner mouthpiece is about 30 years old and
works without any problems.) And a mouthpiece with a
convex table is a dead mouthpiece, isn't it ?
But if this mouthpiece has a concave table from the
beginning: This mouthpiece can't become convex.
The reed - table - unit will always and ever be stable.
Just an idea. What do you think about it ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
