 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Stuart
Date: 1999-06-15 19:00
Hello Friends!
I'm of the opinion that A440 doesn't sound as funky as a more flat pitch. I like it funky.
But I don't play alone, in fact I play with annoying string players who want to use a tuner and tell me I'm perpetualy flat. I know my sound has widened a bit and I think I let it sag, which is cool but I want to in tune!
Is it as easy as a new barrel? What mm is standard? And does anybody know anything about Clarck Fobes? Thanks
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-15 19:58
There are two sides to this perpetual arguement. One is the problem of you playing flat - but against a fair standard such as a tuner. You will need to learn how to consistently play in tune against a fair standard first, before you learn how to play against a constantly changing standard: the entire orchestra. Now, let's attack the second part of the arguement. Strings perpetually drift sharp, whether it's amateurs or pros, they always drift sharp. They too need to learn how to consistently play and stay right smack in tune against a fair standard: the tuning meter. Then after they get that right, they can learn how not to drift sharp and then complain that the rest of the orchestra is perpetually flat.
Your job is to learn your part and play right in tune for all notes and for all situations against a fair standard. After you have that mastered, then you can learn to adapt yourself to the rest of the orchestra as needed to meet the conductor's requirements.
I have to admit that I am still learning how to play against the tuning meter. It's a long and difficult process, but I personally believe that it's essential in my ability to play with a group and stay in tune with a group.
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Author: Stuart
Date: 1999-06-15 21:12
I like to manipulate my sound in ways that tend to make it about 2-3 cents flat. I can play all my notes "in tune" with a machine but it feels like wearing a straight jacket. I was mostly inquireing about using shorter barrels. I compose my own parts and often the whole pieces as well so my job is a little different than that of an orchestral clarinetist. I think a lot of my problems stem from living in a cool area (San Francisco). But anyway, does anbody know anything about shorter barrels?
Also, I think learning to play against a "fair" standard is much less important than play in tune with your group. Hearing it is most important. Intonation is complex, more complex than flat or sharp. Harmony, timbre, and in my case microtones all require a sensitivity based on the developement of natural tendencies rather than conformity to
equal temperment. I don't care if the machine says your right, neither does your audience.
I hear what your saying about going sharp though, that only makes my situation worse when playing with strings!
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-15 21:58
You got the basic and the advanced points right. When playing with an orchestra, you have to go with the flow to make the proper pitch for the situation. It's a difficult task, but it seems that you have a very good grasp of it.
I'm not surprised that you are thinking about getting a shorter (sharper) barrel to play more in tune with strings. Many of the pro grade horns (like mine) come with two barrels, one at A=440 and a 1 mm shorter barrel that tunes to A=442. I temporarily forgot that I have two barrels, with lots of hints to use the shorter one for string ensemble work.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-06-15 22:51
Stuart,
If you like shorter barrels then you'll be in tune or sharp - and you said you liked being flat. Why go to a shorter barrel? I'm confused.
Most people like being in tune with the other instruments. Since many pianos here in the US are tuned to A=442 (according to the Piano Tuner's Guild), you've got to be careful about going too flat unless you really <b>like</b> those beat notes.
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Author: Stuart
Date: 1999-06-15 23:17
I guess I'm making no sense.
What i'm trying to say is that I really relax my chops a lot so the sound changes and feels "flat" but I would actualy like the ability to go up to 442 if I choose without losing a relaxed feel. I would like a very flexible set up.
How our of whack would a shorter barrel throw my set up?
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Author: Ben
Date: 1999-06-16 01:16
Stuart,
If I'm understanding things, it seems that you prefer to play with a relaxed embouchure but can't because it drifts too flat. I know exactly how you feel. Due to my instrument, it's impossible for me to relaxe my embouchure and maintain a resonable pitch.
I've looked into other barrels and found the selection sparse. Check the International Music Supplies web page. (you can find it from this page listed under resources)
They have several different brands of barrels listed in their catalog.
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-06-16 02:56
1.Shoreter barrels
I use a shorter Chadash barrel 65mm than my Selmer 10SII tuned to 442Hz has a Selmer's 66.5mm. My clarinet seems to emit sharper notes. I think this comes from these reasons.
1)Chadash barrel emits tones with much more harmonics below primary harmonics.This will make the tones sharper than they really are.
2)Of course,shorter barrel will emit sharper tones.
You can try barrels DEG,Moennig,Chadash of different lencths they sell.
3)However different barrels will change the balance of each register's tuning tendency.This is what manufacturers say.
2.String and Clarinet
I read somewhere that even excellent clarinet players have difficulty to play in tuen with string players since clarinets are scaled equal tempered whereas strings tend to take pure tone scale(and pure tone scale is better to hear!)
So,your problem may not be solved for long.
3.How to make minute tuning?
This is very easy for flutists but very difficult for clarinettists. These are what I learned.
1)To slide lower lip position very very slightly.This is detaile in an article of ICA.
2)Use alternate fingerings. Very simple example is the open G can be made flat putting down your RH1,RH2,RH3.
3)Clarinet eimits flat tones in forte, and sharper tones in pp.So shorter barrel may bring about difficulty in playing in pp,I guess.
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Author: A. Brown
Date: 1999-06-16 18:25
Tuning: it's all relative.
Differentiate between A=442 and the accusation that "string players go sharp." After strings do their initial tuning, their strings go flatter as their strings stretch, not sharper. In the orchestral group, the winds' tuning goes sharp as they warm up, and the strings' tuning goes flat.
And whether one plays a wind or a string, intonation is a note-by-note problem regardless of the correctness of the initial tuning or the integrity of the instruments' designs. Ultimately one tunes by one's ear, not by a machine. It seems the equipment needs to be adequate to get the instrument into the close neighborhood of whatever pitch is being used; then, it is up the the adjustment of the player.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-06-16 19:06
Well said, I suspect the confusion arises from whether the ambient temp.goes UP [strings go flat, winds go sharp, due to elementary physics] or vice versa. Back when I was playing orchestral oboe and "tuning" the orch, I found two problems. Almost everyone tuned a bit sharp to me [for comfort?] [its a sin to B flat!] leaving ME to be flat! Second, in warming up "the ill wind nobody blows good!", the strings would sarcastically ask "Which A should I tune to??" Just pray that you have a good sense of pitch, but not absolute!!! Don
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-16 20:56
The problem with string and wind performers is that you are right, they tend to play by ear as they go along. Everyone does and that's expected. You are also correct in saying that the acoustics and physics of the situation affect tuning. For instance, strings may tend to go flat as they stretch and horns tend to drift towards or away from predicted tuning when they get warmed up. Again, few people will argue the point.
What can happen is that the players' perception of tuning changes during a performance. String players, being human beings and not senseless/tireless robots, tend to slightly pull up fingerings on their instruments as they progress in a concert and hence they drift sharp. It's just a natural tendency. Winds and wind players tend to drift either sharp or flat as they get instruments and embouchures warmed up or cooled off during a performance. Again, that's the way life is. The more astute performers in the orchestra will recognize these tendencies and compensate as necessary to keep their part of the ensemble herded in the right direction. However, you know you are losing it when the director stops the practice session and demands that everyone tune up. (Email me for specific examples.) Sometimes, players will start right off the bat with a hardware solution, such as a clarinetist with a shorter barrel, if they know that they will be playing in a string heavy ensemble. As long as they know what they are doing and how to compensate for situational differences during the performance, I guess that's okay, too.
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Author: Fred McKenzie
Date: 1999-06-16 21:50
Stuart wrote:
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I think a lot of my problems stem from living in a cool area (San Francisco). But anyway, does anbody know anything about shorter barrels?
Stuart-
If we're only talking bringing A=438 up to A-440, a shorter barrel is likely to be all you need.
If you could shrink the entire instrument, all notes would be affected equally. But, changing just the barrel length results in a different percentage change for throat tones compared to lower notes. Therefore, the further you are from an instrument's "ideal" pitch, there will be more variation in the amount of compensation required for different notes.
In an extreme case, such as pulling out the barrel of a clarinet built for A=456, it is unlikely that you can play all notes in tune at A-440.
Fred
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