 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-12-03 03:07
This is nowhere near finished, but I wanted to let everyone know it is happening:
Taking up Mark Charette's rightfully issued challenge, we began testing the electrical tape-on-a-reed idea to achieve a "darker" sound.
Blew the entire day on Saturday just trying to get some top grade spectrum analyzers to work with a PC, and couldn't. First we tried a Tektronix, an Avcom-Ramsey and a Felec, external to the PC. Couldn't get them to interface.
Then we decided to use a PC spectrum analyzer program and tried four that didn't work right, three due to irreconcileable software conflicts, one due to missing "DLL" files."
Finally got one to work that we had to contact a professioinal systems engineer in China to get. (PC spectrum analyzer and oscilloscope programs are pretty scarce on a moment's notice.)
At 23:00, Saturday night, we finished the preliminary test (we were at it since 08:30.) I may want to expand upon this preliminary test before making it public on Sneezy, Mark Charette permitting. (It will probably be too big to put on the BB.)
The spectrum analyzer program we finally used is not exactly the greatest I've seen, but it may work for the purpose. The virtual instrument is not too extraordinarily accurate in its measuring capabilities and the waveform is not the most detail-explicit I've seen. It could be leaving out minute details of the sound wave that may mean something important to someone who knows how to interpret it.
I have feelers out to see if anyone I know can come up with a relatively inexpensive way to interface a Tektronix 494P spectrum analyzer with an IBM compatible PC running Windows 98 or 2000, or ME (preferably 98.) The difference in results accuracy would be astounding. Failing that, a really accurate PC spec-A program.
Anyway, I sent the preliminary results we obtained to a good friend who is a graduate acoustics engineer, and in the process of (perhaps) returning to college for a music degree (she is also an excellent flute and clarinet player.)
I am used to looking at RF waves on the spec-A, but not sound waves, so she will tell me more about them and if she sees enough differences that may be better brought out with a more accurate instrument, then we'll go from there. If not, then we will try to put some sort of a presentation together that won't be too time and space consuming and, through Mark C., try to put it somewhere in Sneezy.
Well, that's all for now folks!
Peter
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-03 03:26
Ahhhhh - no one has defined what "dark" means IRT the frequency spectrum, but it should be fun anyway.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-12-03 07:09
John T.Lynch, a NASA engineer, analyzed acoustically, what effects cryogenics treatment has on different trumpets. FYI.
http://www.whc.net/rjones/jlynch/
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2001-12-03 07:51
It's good to see that some people take this BB really seriously! Even on issues they don't believe in. Look what you started "clarinet713".
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-12-03 07:53
At another thread I found Clark Forbes recommended to shorten the register key open height patching 'electrical tape' on the seat where finger key bottom touches.
I wondered if you are talking about this. No?
Although this is by Mr.Bush, Mr.Forbs says the same thing:
http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/2000/10/000796.txt
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-12-03 11:29
Mark,
You are absolutely correct about a lack of definition for a "dark" sound in regards to the frequency spectrum, but I would say that if an instrument produced a specific pitch while playing a specific note, and that pitch could be made to sound "darker" by adding electrical tape to the reed, as Mr. Armato recommends, and without losing harmonics in the process, that would tend to prove his point.
Or vice-versa.
Perhaps the key factor in whether the tape produces either a darker or a muddier sound is a function of the loss of some of the frequencies that go into the making of the pitch. I'm just playing this by ear.
Still, it's true, this is just for fun and the heck of it. I don't think any of us (probably) are equipped to turn this experiment into something really serious, anyway!
Hiroshi,
That's not what we are talking about.
Peter
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-12-03 15:45
If you want to conduct a meaningful test, the person playing the clarinet should have no idea of what modification is made nor what aspect of the sound you are investigating. Ideally, a double-blind test should be conducted to eliminate the psychological factors that may affect the test subject's playing.
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Author: Jim P
Date: 2001-12-03 16:42
Vibration analysis equipment would also probably work for this experiment. At a previous job at another employer I had access to CSI equipment, which was designed for vibration analysis on rotating equipment. It would perform Fourier transform on any 0-10 v signal and present a frequency-base graph as a result. The Fourier analysis was done in the handheld box but the results could be downloaded to a PC and could be manipulated, printed, emailed, etc.
I would think that the tape will act as a damper, and probably dampen higher frequencies more than lower frequencies. Then again, darkness or brightness may be related to presence or lack of "noise" between the odd harmonics of the fundamental. It's an interesting question.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-04 03:44
According to Benade, it was cutoff frequency that determined "darkness" (somewhere in "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" - my copy is buried somewhere ...), not a dampening of vibration of the reed. He did a number of experiments on it. But ...
He could have been wrong ...
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-12-04 06:15
OK, I tried it.
However, I used paper stickers of size 0.5x2 cm. I tried bigger tape too, but that spoiled the sound too much. The paper stickers are also easier to remove.
And yes, the reed definitely looses upper frequencies and sounds - how should I put it - darker. Using a simple PC spectrum analysis (the Syaku program), I saw it dampened at least the second overtone on clarion G. (This simple equipment cannot reliably measure higher frequencies.) The reed also looses action in the low chalumeau range.
But what does that proof? Only, that the reed, the lip structure and the way the player acts on it, plus the ligature, has much effect on the sound. I guess, we know that already..
The method may be good to save some shrill sounding reeds, however.
Rene
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-12-04 06:29
Darkness is typically defined by John Coltrane's sound to me. However, it is by no means sound with cut off something, rather added with many things.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-12-04 09:51
Hiroshi, if you want to add something with tape: no, it doesn't. When I tried, it did what everyone would expected it to do, take away something. If you can, you can then try to play louder and thus increase the basic frequency. In the end effect, this amounts to adding something: darkness. Anyway, I did not like the final result too much. It sounded dampened.
Rene
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Author: clarinet713
Date: 2001-12-04 22:14
OH GOODNESS! I didn't mean to start this at all! PLEASE STOP! It was something I read and wanted some other clarinetist's advice on. Gosh.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-12-04 22:34
Let's keep at it. It's kinda interesting.
But if we're doing this as an experiment, we have to remember that everything has to stay at a constant otherwise. Exact same clarinet, exact same ligature, exact same mouthpeice, exact same player, etc. If you wanted to be technical, then you couldn't accomplish this without a degree of error because you can't put a reed on a ligature the exact same way all the time.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2001-12-05 21:46
I applaud the effort to quantify the results....and the problem rather than to dismiss the suggestion as ridiculous. Surely we could all benefit from some good research on reeds.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-12-06 15:57
All you guys, remember, this is not an exact science we are dealing with here. Things like embouchure, etc, have a lot to do with how it may work, or not, from player to player. My findings are just going to be how it worked out for me, in particular.
I somehow think that may be part of what Mark C was refering to when he said,
"...but it should be fun anyway." He knows.
Also, this is not being done under strict laboratory conditions or with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of lab equipment. The only lab around here is the neighbor's dog, and he can't measure frequency worth a crap (although crap everywhere is one thing he can do, and do well!).
Judging from past experience, even when it's done all it might do is keep the argument going for another couple of years...Shigata ganai!
BTW, yes, the preliminary was done with the same clarinet, reed, player, room, temperature, humidity, microphone, computer, etc. The reed was put on extremely carefully and not removed until the initial experiment was done. The different tapes were put on and very carefully lifted off without removing the reed from the mouthpiece.
Don P: I don't think there is any need to blindfold the player. I played the instrument, it was a single note and as far as the psycological aspect of it is concerned, I don't really care at all which way the experiment comes out.
While it was Mark C's comment in taking the opposite view and challenging me to try it that piqued my curiosity and spurred me on, my view is simply that, as long as I'm doing it, we may as well find out in somewhat more specific terms if it works, or not. And if it seems to work, what do you lose or gain, in somewhat more specific terms than someone's likely inaccurate hearing (like the lab next door.)
Either way, we all stand to gain a little more insight (or not!!!)
Enjoy.
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