 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-28 17:34
I know we've hashed this subject a dozen or more times, so I'm not looking for another dialogue on the Selmer Signature. Would like to hear from owners or those who have actually played the Signature. I've tried about 6 of them and never bought one, but love the key action and am still thinking of purchasing one. I tried one that needs new pads, but otherwise is a great instrument.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-11-28 20:41
I played a Selmer Sig. that I thought was good enough to check out on approval from our local music mall. Intonation, sound and eveness of scale--all seemed great until I got it to a rehearsal and played it in the ensemble. The intonation was superb, the scale was even and, you mentioned, the workmanship and care taken in building this instrument--keywork and woodwork--was top-notch. What I didn't like, in the ensemble, was its inflexability regarding musical phrasing and expression. The tone quality did not maintain its focus and richness during dynamic changes and, in general, although solo in the music store, it sounded very nice, in the ensemble, the integrety of the tone lost a lot of "center" and focus in the ensemble. It was actually, kind of a "dead" sound. Other clarinetists also played on it and noticed the same effect, as I did in listening to them. I have tried other Sigs that I have not liked in the music store, but this one I thought I did. What is wrong with the Selmer Signiture sound is still a mystery to me--everything else about the clarinet is wonderful. I much prefer the Selmer 10G that another clarinetist in the ensemble plays and, of course, my own LeBlanc Concerto or my Buffet R-13. But the Selmer Signiture, while it gets a "thumbs up" from me for its tuning and workmanship, it gets a "thumbs down"for its inflexability of tone and expressiveness. Back to you, Granny!!!! Good Clarineting, Too
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-28 20:51
Well, William, I certainly am doing some more thinking about this. You have reminded me of what I found about the 6 I tried. They all were a bit "stuffy." It's too bad that Selmer, or someone, couldn't combine the fine workmanship and key action of the Signature with a great tone. I found it to be very inflexible as well. Also, as you mentioned, I loved it "solo" but disliked it with a group.
So, guess I won't buy one--at least not right now. Maybe they will refine it and it will become a lovely instrument. I think it would take the clarinet world by storm if they could do something about the tone and response.
I also liked the light weight. Made for easier rehearsal periods.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-29 06:31
I was interested in Signature too but hesitated to obtain one because of its superb intonation ironically.
Sax players are seeking even now old Conn or SML although their intonations have very much deviations from equal tempered scale. But at the same time, it means easiness to bend intonations at sessions with other instruments players. By this analogy I thought in case of clarinet ensemble, too much stable or unchangerable intonation may cause a problem especially when playing with strings or singers, i.e. just-tone performers.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2001-11-29 12:51
i have a selmer sig. i dont love it i dont hate it. the funny thing is that i was sure i was going to like the leblanc opus and the buffet vintage better, and then when i actually got some to try i didnt like them any better than my sig.
the stuffyness is because it has high resistance and it requires a more open mouthpiece and softer reed. i spoke to the brannens last week about this and she explained how the sig is unlike any other selmer. it was made to fix all the little complaints by moving things around but in doing so made it stuffy. especially the B nat.
for me, it does what i want it to do and i have spent a year trying to find something better and havent. maybe after its been brannenized i will fall in love with it.
to tell you the truth, i wish i had taken better care of my buffet and hadnt been so anxious to try something new when replacing my old buffet. i kinda regret getting it. i think i shoulda stuck with the old standard.
JL
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-29 14:09
I've had more "buyer remorse" over instruments than anyone on the planet--but with every one of them I've found a silver lining. There's something great about almost every clarinet out there--even the $50.00 cheapies that are falling apart--they can always be used for parts or to loan out or make a lamp! The really expensive ones can teach us a great lesson on the economy--with the silver lining that THANK GOD we didn't invest that money in Tech stocks!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-11-29 17:22
I tried the Signature at the clarinetfest. Although I played it for a while, it was hard to tell too much in that exhibit room. I would love to try it in a rehearsal situation, but I cannot afford to buy one at this point, so I don't want to be tempted.
My impressions of the horn was that it was very comfortable to play, easy across registers, well in tune. My concern was that the tone was a bit more covered or darker than I am used to. I would possibly have to adapt my set up for this. I am always a little afraid of being too covered, as often that type of sound, while it sounds great up close or in the practice room, gets buried in the ensemble.
Last I knew, I was told some major names-Ricardo Morales, Todd Levy and Sean Osborne were supposedly playing it. I would love to have an opportunity to play it long term and really evaluate it. It seems to have lots of potential, it may just mean that it would take a bit of adjustment from what I am used to. That is not necessarily a bad thing. it may be a huge improvement in the long run.
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Author: Josh
Date: 2001-11-29 20:48
So does this mean that Ricardo is no longer a LeBlanc Artist? I thought he was like, the poster child (pun *so* intended) for the Opus?
Josh I'mreallyconfusedboutwhatallthesebigguysareplayin'nowadays.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-11-29 21:33
The "Big Guys" usually play what they like and can get for free. I also know two "small guys" that told me they got Opus clarinets for free from Vito (LeBlanc Corp. Chairman) because they were personal friends, but the better players whom you see advertised as "Playing My Clarinet" probably got them for advertisment rights or "very reasonably." I wonder if Ricardo had to give back his Opus when he started playing the competitors products?????? I was introduced to Vito at LeBlanc by Tom Ridenour, but alas, no freebies. Must have been something I said about the colored plastic clarinets on display in the front office.... I don't remember. Anyway, thats another subject--Good Clarineting!!!!!!!
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-11-29 23:48
Speaking of Tom Ridenour, here is his testimony concerning the newly-designed Signature. A product plug yes, but when a player, clinician, craftsman, esteemed author, devoted student of the profession, superb gentlemen and industry giant such as Tom speaks, one should listen.
[The next 1,307 words of praise by Tom snipped out by the Webnmaster. As much as I like Tom, his or any other ad does not belong here. A pointer would have sufficed. Do <b>not</b> just copy ad brocures here]
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Author: Michael Kincaid
Date: 2001-11-30 11:15
I have been playing a Selmer Signature for 2 years and I have mixed feelings.
The high resistance has been a problem for me after
25 years of not playing and the B natural (all fingers down) is a difficult note for me still.
I love the tone and the clarinet itself is a beautiful instrument to look at.
I'm not sorry that I bought it, and I'm still learning to appreciate its personality. I'm determined
to make it my instrument for life. Michael
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-30 13:53
Having played the Opus for several years, and play-tested the Signature (not as many hours as the Opus), I can tell you the Opus is the winner hands down. There's no comparison. The Opus is more expensive to purchase, but has been a better instrument in the past than the Signature. I've heard the quality-control at Leblanc really stinks since T. Ridenour left and it's hard to find a good Opus these days, so I wouldn't recommend buying a new one right now.
Those high profile pro guys have offers all the time to try the latest, newest whatevers so they can get endorsements for advertising from them. It doesn't mean too much anymore to say that someone plays a certain instrument, unless they really believe in that instrument and tell you why.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-30 16:05
Brenda said : "Those high profile pro guys have offers all the time to try the latest, newest whatevers so they can get endorsements for advertising from them. It doesn't mean too much anymore to say that someone plays a certain instrument, unless they really believe in that instrument and tell you why."
That is very true - remember, Ricardo Morales has switched "affiliations" at least 3 times in the past half dozen years...GBK
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-12-02 01:54
Here is the Tom Ridenour link of the Signature from my partially deleted post. My apology to Mark for unintentionally breaching website protocol.
http://www.selmer.com/htdox/ridenour.htm
Regarding Morales, there’s two sides to every story and I wouldn’t be so hard on the man. I do know he had invested countless hours working with Buffet and Leblanc designers to enhance "quality control"; apparently he didn’t achieve the desired results. I would consider waning quality a suitable reason, professionally and personally to run out my contract and move on. He has every a right to protect his good name. And if it was me, I’d hesitate passing judgment on any world-class players (especially “young”, come-of-age virtuosos like Morales with a promising career before him) who are flooded by tidal waves of clarinet "marketing hounds" dishing out free horns and pawing all over them to win endorsements and commissions. Regardless of what you think of him personally or philosophically, players like Morales are pacesetters and innovators who positively impact the industry. People of all professions routinely change affiliations in business when there are irreconcilable differences in company policy. In past years, celebrities and athletes like Michael Jordan, Bill Cosby and Tiger Woods (through ingenious management) have lined their pockets endorsing more products than all the socks in their dressers. We French Boehm players are indeed fortunate, we have a host of fine premium brands, resources and craftsmen at our fingertips, and other instrumentalists aren’t as lucky. Oboists, Saxophonists and Bassoonists for instance even within a competitive price range are limited unless they go custom costing as high as $25,000. Loree, Fox, Heckel, Selmer and Yamaha are basically it for them.
Being a working clarinetist 25 years now, I’m on the go constantly and simply don’t have the time to sift through dozens of clarinets as if I'm attending a wine tasting contest. If "I have to" try out more than 5 horns of any brand/model in order to find a “keeper” (and THAT’S too many) that instrument maker is inferior and I quickly find the door. And it’s tough too, it’s so easy for any one of us to fall for slick advertising hype, I’ve been seduced as much as any and am the proud owner of accessories and gadgets worth less than my cancelled checks. To me, it’s ridiculous and a colossal waste for people to labor months if not years tirelessly searching and spending play testing a gazillion horns of “one particular” brand just to find that horn to die for (although it’s their money and time if that's what floats their boat). I’ve had to learn over the years to take a more objective, practical approach and never again will I swear allegiance to any one brand. Serious clarinetists IMO place too much emphasis on brand-distinction and loyalty.
A month ago in one sitting I play tested 13 new horns for my back-up Bb. They were shipped from 3 reputable American woodwind shops. All were cherry-picked randomly "off the rack", none prepped, cork-stopped and in the plastic. When in the market for a horn every 5 years or so (and I don’t collect them like bubble gum cards), I do the compulsory research and buzz, seek advice from mentors, then select 2 or 3 brands/models tailored to my budget and musical needs. This might seem silly but in the first round I have my wife hand them to me and I play them blindfolded, this system helps me remain more objective, not be influenced by sight and aids in concentration.
The batch sampled were 5 Opus’, 5 R-13 Greenlines and 3 Signatures. Playing on a 5-year old Opus as my primary I was disappointed hacking through all the new ones. They all blew like a lead pipe to me, had nebulous, shrill tones that spread widely from high C to double C and backed up on the bottom. 12ths, octaves, and diatonic major/minor 3rds, 4ths, and open 5ths were widely inconsistent running sharp/flat up to 50 cents. Chuck West had recommended the Greenlines and sure enough 2 of the 5 played superbly in all areas, definitely the most responsive, full-sounding, beefy 3rd register and best for getting nice “doot” tongue articulations. But, 2 of the 3 Signatures were hands-down the pride of the black forest. I spent the next 3 hours with a tuner and favorite literature agonizing over the remaining 4, finally settling on one Signature and one Greenline.
I brought them to work to be further scrutinized by 8 fellow clarinetists, each with different set-ups. They all took ample time and systematically passed them around, 2 swapped taking them home. They all literally played the snot out of the horns in 6 long days of concert band, clarinet quartet and quintet rehearsals, plus (when comfortable) section playing in a 2-day recording session of Rossini’s, “La Boutique Fantastique” (trans. Charles Sayre), Martin Ellerby's "Venetian Spells" and David Diamond’s “Hearts Music”. When they all had their fill the collective reaction of the Signature was an overwhelming thumbs-up. 4 of the 8 were ready to pull out their checkbooks and all but one preferred the Greenline. The bulk of the comments focused on significant improvement in pitch "within" the clarinet section itself and across the band. Past problem notes, unison/octave lines, and tight voicings with the flutes, oboes, efer and even the insipidly sharp picc locked in better; and that was using standard fingerings. A general consensus of a more, dark “round”, rich, creamy-like tone, better precision attacks, evenness and fluidity throughout all registers. The Greenline fan insisted the horn played too resistant but the others thought it didn’t necessarily blow more “resistant” rather "compressed". The benefit being a tighter pitch center and actually MORE flexible as slight adjustments could be better made using the embouchure versus alternate fingerings. Also, one remark on being forgiving of mediocre-playing reeds.
In chamber settings, 2 felt like they could take more command of the instrument and “play out” with no fear of over-balancing the ensemble and a perceived confidence boost in more exposed passages and delicate entrances.
I’ve had my Signature for about 3 weeks and just performed a mini-recital today, “Deuxieme Sonate”, by Devienne, and 3rd movement “Sonatina” Finale by Szalowski. I enjoyed my best performance to date and couldn’t be happier with my purchase. Give it a whirl. v/r KEN
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-12-02 02:55
Give us a call back in a year or two on how the Signature holds up. A few weeks isn't enough of a test. Hope it does fine.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-12-03 11:23
Ken quoted Tom as writing:
"....They were shipped from 3 reputable American woodwind shops. All were cherry-picked randomly "off the rack", none prepped, cork-stopped and in the plastic...."
This astonishes me greatly. It is rare indeed for me to unpack a new Signature and fined that no adjustment is required. The limited evidence I have suggests that the situation is little different for a Buffet.
From my experience I do not believe it is possible to do valid comparative judging of flutes/clarinets/saxophones without full post-factory check and adjustment. (I cannot speak reliably for oboes and bassoons). A possible exception is top quality flutes.
Is Tom justified in making the assumption that this has been done by the woodwind shops he shipped from?
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-12-03 16:32
Double-checking my post I was in error and apologize for its inaccuracy. The Signatures DID ship prepped from the shop, whether or not it was play-tested there or I was the first is impossible for me to determine unless I call and ask. I do not know or have ever met Tom Ridenour and have no information as to his role in Selmer fatory production, prepping or shipping policies. The Greenlines and Opus' I received were still sealed with the usual shipping matierals but still play-ready after I removed it.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-12-03 16:48
Tom Ridenour works for Brook Mays Music and is located in Dallas, TX. To get a Signature from him would mean going through the Brook Mays Music stores. He only play-tested one from Selmer, he doesn't personally sell them. Although, you could contact the Brook Mays Music store 800 number and ask for his phone number and get him to select one for you. It would come from Brook Mays.
I tried to buy a Signature from them a few months back and it never worked out. They sent me one that was in a double case and was obviously old stock. It needed several pads replaced and had some nicks and scratches. I worked with the manager for a while and finally gave up. He was never able to obtain a single instrument case for it and was not really eager to replace the pads, etc.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-12-03 17:12
Brenda, that's absolutely ridiculous! Especially if they knew you were a professional player and the least bit interested in gaining a worthy customer. I got my 3 Signatures from Muncy and they of course, came spotless in those nice chamois-lined, sleek single case. They were definitely brand new without a nick on them. When I called, (I forgot the guys name, he's a retired trombone player with the Air Force Band program). I specifically requested they just pull 3 off the shelf at random and NOT send what they thought were the best. They worked with me and I got mine for an even $2,500. I'll actually make a good "test case" for durability 'cause I play so much. Thanks for the heads-up on that place.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-12-04 10:56
The "absolutely ridiculous" seems to be quite common in the world of instrument marketing.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-12-04 14:27
I always knew musicians were right brain people, apparently so are some of the vendors.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-12-04 17:24
Ken wrote: "I always knew musicians were right brain people, apparently so are some of the vendors." Per my experience, quite a few vendors are no-brain people.
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