 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Victor
Date: 2001-11-29 05:46
I have recently purchased a Leblanc Esprit clarinet. Unfortunately, the keys feel suspicious like nickel-plated. Are there ways for me to find out for sure?
Incidentally, while many people prefer silver to nickel plating for various reasons, does anyone out there prefer nickel plating instead? What are your reasons? I rather enjoy nickel's slippery feel... makes sliding fingers easier. However, I am concerned about possible future tarnish and/or corrosion. Are there ways to prevent that (wiping and cleaning the keys regularly like trumpet players?)? I like the sound and feel of this particular clarinet, so it would be a great shame if I give it up just because it has nickel-plated instead of silver-plated keys (unless, of course, silver keys ARE that much more preferable to nickel).
Any advice is appreciated.
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Author: Victor
Date: 2001-11-29 05:51
I would like to add something to my post. I was wondering if there are people out there who have never had problems with nickel-plated keys. I.e, people who own and play on a clarinet with nickel-plated keys for more than 10 or 20 years without having the keys tarnish/corrode/wear out/brown. How do you do it?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-11-29 07:07
Interestingly, a seller of clarinets and oboes told me that silver plated keys make the instrument sound "darker". Gold plating makes the instruments sound more "dark". My nickle plated R-13s sound great to me but I like the feel of silver better. A gold plated oboe I had and later sold just felt wonderful. Nickle is fine but very slippery.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-11-29 11:38
Silver tarnishes much worse and much faster than nickel. If you hope to go 10 to 20 years without tarnish, then stay away from silver as it will tarnish within just a few years unless you regularly polish it. On the other hand, nickel can easily go that long unless you have a very bad environment or very corrosive fingers (and a few people do so they pick silver).
Nickel is also harder and stronger than silver so unless you have a problem with acidic skin, it will take longer to wear through. That is, of course, assuming that both types of plating are correctly done with adequate plating thickness
Personally, I don't notice any significant difference in "slipperiness" between the two. I do think that silver is prettier.
Neither material is better than the other. Whatever you prefer will be just fine. If the horn plays well for you and feels good to you, don't worry about the material that the keys are plated with. You can always get it re-plated with the material of your choice when you get a complete overhaul done for only a small additional fee. Note that you do have to time it with a complete overhaul since they have to take the keys off, etc and remove all the pads and so on to do that plating. However it may be 10 or 20 years or more before the instrument would need such a complete overhaul. Naturally if you don't mind the expense of paying for the complete overhaul sooner, you could get it replated any time you like.
Finally, per the Leblanc website (<www.gleblanc.com>), you would have found that the Esprit is available only with nickel plating.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-11-29 11:44
My mistake, I didn't read Leblanc's entire page. There is a silver plated version available.
Take it to a jeweler. They can probably tell nickel from silver.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-29 12:53
I agree with most of what Dee wrote, but...
I've seen nickel plating in a horrible, off-white, rough, tarnished condition - frequently - on old instruments.
Nickel tarnish is very difficult to remove.
Nickel is cruel to technicians' cutting tools which may be needed for fine adjustment.
With age nickel seems prone to bad corrosion interaction between some base metals and the nickel, starting at microscopic pores and causing deeep pitting.
Am I right in saying that nickel is more difficult to remove for replating. Any pitting cannot be undone.
All is not rosy with nickel plating.
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Author: Brent
Date: 2001-11-29 13:17
Dee, i'm not sure i agree with your assertion that silver will tarnish in just a few years. While it's true that my 25-year-old 10Gs have a little "toning" (as coin collectors would say) in the crevices, most of the exposed surfaces of the silver plating are still pretty much silver colored and not a black or "tarnished" look. I will agree, however, that Nickel is harder and seems less prone to tarnish due to airborne impurities.
I suppose that it would depend on the chemistry of one's skin which would last longer. Acid would affect nickel faster than it would silver, just based on the galvanic table of metals. Sulfur will affect silver more readily.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-29 13:54
Based on the fact that our silver table-ware shows tarnish, practically, within a couple of week of being polished, and this thread, I just had a telephone conversation with a jeweler friend.
According to him, aside from the atmospheric and chemical reactions mentioned above, it also has to do with the purity of the silver. The more pure the silver, the faster it will usually tarnish. My silver Optimum ligatures also tarnish, within a couple of weeks. I don't know if it's our ambient conditions or chemical reaction, or both.
As far as plating is concerned, often, the plate that takes a very long time to tarnish may not be "pure" (silver, gold, etc.) or it may be sealed with a top finish to help keep it from being easily damaged.
Of course, this is in the experience of a jeweler, not an instrument refinisher. It would be interesting to hear from a professional instrument refinisher as well.
I was recently offered an old, very desirable, chrome-plated King saxophone (from long before UMI) and when I went to see it, it was completely pitted from bell-to-neck, just as Gordon described. Worthless. Such a shame!
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-11-29 14:25
Note however that chrome is not the same as either nickel or silver.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-11-29 16:38
I have a Series 9 with (i believe) nickel-plated keys, with virtually no tarnish. This horn is about 40 years old. I, too, find little difference between the two in terms of feel, and believe it makes NO difference in tone. Nickel plating is more durable than silver plating. IMHO, this is a cosmetic issue only. If you like the clarinet, who cares? Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-11-29 17:45
The tarnish on silver is easily removed while the plating is very durable. Nickel plating under my fingers starts to wear through in less than a year.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-29 19:38
Dee,
Sorry my mistake, I meant to say nickel plated, where I said chrome, in regards to the saxophone.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-30 16:57
Actually, Esprits are available in either nickel or silver-plated models.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-30 17:03
Sorry, my hand accidentally hit the "enter" before I finished my message. As I was saying, Esprits are available (up until a few months ago) in silver-plated or nickel keys. I have bought and sold both versions to happy customers (several Sneezies). The silver-plated version feels better in the hand than the nickel-plated one, but both are excellent instruments and I recommend them to intermediate players all the time. They're probably one of the best values on the market because of their excellent intonation and great tone. They're tough and can be bought for less than a new Buffet R-13.
As for the specific question about the keys--silver-plated clarinets need to have their keys wiped off after playing to protect from tarnish and don't do well in storage, where a nickel-plated clarinet can get by with less attention. Many professionals prefer the silver-plated because of the feel--faster play, etc. I don't think the tone is any different--and this comes from many, many dozens of Esprits I've play-tested and sold in the last 2 years. It is high on my list of instruments for high-school to early college players---or for the returning musician.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-12-01 13:31
I think your hair colour would definitely have more effect on tone that the plating of keys. What a ridiculous assertion!
Put nickel plating in polyurethane varnish vapours overnight and the nickel will all turn a mat off-white colour.
As indicated above, these metals are attacked by different pollutants. Which is more durable will depend on the environment it is subjected to. Nickel will suffer badly from some people's perspiration. Onions, eggs, wool, wool felt & often products of combustion contain sulphur which tarnish silver, but this is often to a shiny 'patina' which actually protects the metal, even if looks are compromised.
Severe pitting does seem more common with nickel in my experience. Once it starts it gets very bad quickly and eats deeply into the base metal. the incidence of this MAY depend on the alloy of the base metal.
Trace metals (paladium?) are definitely alloyed with some silver platings to make the surface more tarnish resistant. I doubt that a cost-cutting manufacturer - and that includes most - would bother much with this.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2001-12-01 18:59
I am always surprised when people dislike the "patina" that forms on silver. It's silver sulfide and there's nothing bad about it unless you're in a band where the director is fussy about it. Professional silversmiths will tell you the worst thing you can do with silverware is get fussy about removing all the patina. When you remove it more forms and what you in effect are doing is removing the silverplating.
Some people are allergic to nickel but aside from that and assuming it's a good plating job it should be every bit as good as nickel.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-12-01 22:22
Gordon NZ said:
"I think your hair colour would definitely have more effect on tone that the plating of keys. What a ridiculous assertion! "
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I certainly don't mean to be controversial but you'd be standing in quite a long line of my fellow professionals (of the entire woodwind section for that matter) that think it not so rediculous. Same if not moreso for the plating of ligatures.
Gregory Smith
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