 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-27 06:28
I thought that this short article, with Hans Moennig's thoughts on the declining quality on grenadilla instruments might stimulate some interesting discussion:
http://www.corkpad.com/dispose.html
Anyone care to share their tales of woe with cracking instruments? Fortunately, I have none to offer...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rmk
Date: 2001-11-27 12:01
Also check out this article on the same website:
http://www.corkpad.com/storch.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2001-11-27 13:44
I'm a great reader of the "works" of Alvin Swiney. When I got my 1938 Buffet, I wrote him a message---he wrote back assuring me my clarinet was like none that are being made today. Alvin has contributed greatly to my appreciation and understanding of wood instruments. I do not accept everything he says as uncontestable truth, but his remarks are, neverrtheless, thought-provoking and often accurate.
There is, as anyone who has older Buffets or other instrument can see, a huge difference in the quality/character of the wood. Even my 1967 "A" has a denser, firmer feel to the timber. Call this subjective if you like---for me, it's there to see, rather easily. Its affect on tone may be more along the lines of my mental projection, and yet I will say my 1985 Buffet is a sad competitor for the older instruments. Less flexibility, less personality, less color. Louder, though.
Alvin also said in his message to me about the old Buffet that tone holes were made more roughly then and require smoothing out. Also, the keywork on my 1938 Buffet---not as easy to negotiate! --Bill.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-27 14:05
Is Buffet making or planning to make any greenline oboes? Gotta say I love my greenline R-13 and think it would be a great oboe material. Certainly would solve the problem of cracking.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Josh
Date: 2001-11-27 16:09
the Buffet BC3613G professional oboe is a Greenline instrument. What would be awesome would be Greenline harmony horns...altos, basses, contras, etc...(speaking of, anybody wonder why Buffet only makes a contralto, and not a contrabass?)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aaron
Date: 2001-11-28 00:00
Probablly they make nno Contra alto/Bass because there just isnt the market for it, plus cost for manufacture and research and development would dirve the cost of the istrument so high they cant risk re-tooling for making the Contra horns.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Joris
Date: 2001-11-28 01:04
It would be even better if Buffet would stop the hoax and produce the professional bores in true plastic instead of weakening the instruments with wood dust, like they do with greenline. Adding wood dust doesn't give the instrument a better sound, it just makes the plastic more brittle.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-28 10:52
Good one!
Someone had to say it.
But ARE they more brittle? Even with the 5% of carbon fibre? More brittle that which plastic in particular? I have found Vito tenons break off easily. Yamahas are more robust.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Werner
Date: 2001-11-28 13:55
I don't believe in this 'the material doesn't make a difference'.
I did grow up with recorders between my fingers, and
there is a difference between different woods. I always
was told about 'woods with different surface structure (pores)
are producing different sounds.
I don't understand why this should be different with
clarinets.
The following writing of Jochen Seggelke makes a lot of
sence to me:
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/deutsch/publications/claringerm/lit_ClarGer_10.htm
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-11-28 19:13
Avoiding discussion of the first reference's support of several rather absurd conspiracy theories, here's a cut to the chase:
The writer says: "Some acousticians feel that the natural oils in the wood dry out and the material becomes unstable and lighter." Well, here's some red-hot news for those unnamed acousticians and their feelings: Oil does not dry out. Water dries out. Evaporation is not a complex process, but in order for it to happen, some water molecules must exceed the energy level required to cause them to vaporize. The end result is that all water, left in one place long enough, eventually will evaporate. Oil, on the other hand, has a far higher boiling point, the molecules are considerably more massive than those of water, and there are other reasons which conspire against any significant amount of "drying out."
Do remember that water is a natural constituent of wood, and there's far more water than oil in freshly-cut wood. "Curing" the wood is an effort to get most of the water out, so that the wood will not undergo any more dimensional changes after the wood is formed. Some water is generally allowed to remain, because if *all* the water is removed, the wood may exhibit undesirable stresses which were earlier cushioned by that internal water. If the curing process is taken slowly, shrinkage of the wood may be more uniform, thus keeping unrelieved stresses minimuzed. The master Flemish harpsichord makers of old, in drying soundboards, took delight in seeing cracks appear, for these indicated that the wood was becoming both dry and stress-relieved. They simply glued the cracks closed and proceeded. Doesn't sound like quite the thing to do in preparing wood for a wind instrument -- or does it? Perhaps the most resonant clavichord soundboard I've ever heard was one that was actually *baked* at about 250F until it was absolutely dry. This was done by someone who didn't "know any better." No cracks appeared, and after protection was applied, that soundboard was great for many years.
Anyway, when water departs a wind instrument after it is manufactured, that water should likely be technologically replaced by something, and oil works quite well for the purpose. Pressure, immersion, rubbing in, swabbing, something. And let us not be concerned about some mystifying constituent of the water... the stuff that evaporates is straight water, pure dihydrogen oxide if you wish, nothing else. The wood is not likely to respond adversely to replacing the lost water with oil, and the only other option is placing the wood in a higher-humidity environment, so that it can reabsorb some water. If the vacancies left by the evaporated water are not filled, it truly may be a danger to the continued life of the wood. The result? Cracks. Will treating the wood in this manner eliminate all the cracks? No. Some cracks will appear so as to relieve previously unseen stresses with only the slightest provocation.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-11-28 23:41
Water in the wood of woodwind instruments is of several different types - the same molecular structure but the binding of water molecules in wood follows several dissipation curves. Much of the water in cured, plant derived oil impregnated wood, is found as the water of hydration of the special surface qualities of these oils that form a mono-molecular (one molecule thick) layer of water surrounding the oil droplet in the wood inter and intra-cellular spaces. The energy (dehydration forces) needed to remove this layer of moisture are immense. Other water forms ionic bonds across molecules of water bound to the oil droplets and other complex carbohydrates (like sugars) found in the cellulose (wood) matrix (this requires somewhat less energy to displace but much more than "free" water. Finally, extracellular and non-bonded water (water which enters pores and channels within the wood structure and redistributes throughout the wood - "free" water) is the easiest and most readily removed by dehydration conditions.
Once cured and oil impregnated the wood should maintain a relatively stable moisture content if the dehydration energy forces do not become too extreme. If oil is removed or if displaced by other oils that do not have the hydrophilic (water loving) characteristics of plant derived oils then the total moisture content of the wood is shifted to greater water loss (or water gain - "free" water). Hydrodynamic (forces due to water) pressures within grenadilla wood can be altered by up to several hundred kilos per square centimeter due to rapid uptake of water or severe dehydration of the wood. These stresses can lead to failure of the wood structure (cracks, splits, checks) in certain pieces of wood - hope your's is not one of them! The build up or loss of water can be moderated by maintaining proper environmental conditions (temperature, humidity) and IMHO maintaining the balance of the proper plant derived oils which maintain the first types of water in equilibrium.
The Doctor
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-11-29 04:04
I can conceive of no way that oil could possibly leave and reenter interstitial spaces in wood with the rapidity of water. Ergo, it appears obvious that once the plain old free ("loose" even seems like a good term) water has departed the instrument during curing, it must be replaced by a proper oil in order to "stabilize" the wood. Otherwise, the wood will just sit there, acting like a sort of sponge, accepting and yielding water as the humidity changes. This is likely the worst of all possible cases, as the continuing stress changes in the wood could be disastrous. A small change in mass with humidity variation is one thing, but even the smallest change in the volume of the wood is another entirely.
I prefer to simplify my consideration of the situation by pretty much ignoring surface and bound water... as The Doctor notes, it's really hard to get rid of that stuff without taking the wood to extremes of temperature or low humidity; and if the wood has had that "replacement" oil (oil which takes the place of much of the water which was formerly present) appropriately applied, all should be well. One important consideration, though, is that it's unwise to use a petroleum-source oil in the wood. As I write this, I see on my desk a bottle of Selmer "Bore Oil," received with an instrument I bought, which could probably be much better used for boring holes in mild steel than oiling the bore of an instrument. In the past, I used an organic oil on woodwind bodies, always wondering why it never smelled rancid. Now we know that with the proper constituents in the oil, there is no need to worry.
Regards,
John
who should cut out this technical gabbing and go soak a clarinet (really)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
