 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Melanie
Date: 1999-06-12 19:45
Attention all those who have experience with old attic finds!
Does anybody know where I can get really old music appraised? As a graduation gift, I received boxes on end of old music and magazines called "The Etude." The magazines run from 1911 to 1951. I don't have every issue, but I have a great number. The boxes also contained a tremendous amount of sheet music and method books for cornet, cello, guitar, trombone, and percussion (including "Bongo Made Easy" by Chico Arnez). One of the books is a copy of Arban's Complete Conservatory Method for Trumpet published by Carl Fischer in 1936. I also have the piano accompaniment for the Twelve Celebrated Fantaisies and Airs Varies from 1911.
If any of you know how I can find the worth of old music or what I should do with the pieces I do not want, I would greatly appreciate any information.
Thanks!
Melanie
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-12 20:31
Well in antique stores, most of what I have seen goes from $1 to $3 each. Occasionally a little more (unless of course you have some famous composer's original manuscript or something). At yard sales and auctions, you can often get an entire box of the stuff for somewhere around $10.
I have bought several small orchestra scores off the eBay auction for $3 each. The latest one that I bid on and won is from 1898 and the shipping was more than the music!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-06-12 22:40
I bought the entire stock of piano music from a small store going out of business for 10 cents on the dollar (cover price). Some of the music was 80 years old, some brand new.
The old stuff was between ten and fifty cents cover price :^)
I've got eight full cartons of piano music in the basement. $225.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-12 22:54
Melanie & Mark,
If any of it is from BEFORE 1923, I might be interested in those pieces.
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Author: Melanie
Date: 1999-06-13 05:26
Dee,
What made 1923 such an important year in music? Some of mine are before then.
Melanie
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Author: mouge
Date: 1999-06-13 11:26
For Melanie: Style change not only vocal but instrumental
as well. Orchestration for band and orchestra changed in
writing for woodwinds and melodic transfer between lead
instruments. Melodies became more major than minor in struc
ture.. Many people buy the cover only!!!!!
I would be interested in the old Etude's if the articles in-
clude material on ragtime.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-13 12:51
Actually it has nothing to do with musical issues. Anything with an original copyright date before 1923 is now out of copyright and in the public domain. This means that anyone can copy it, make new arrangements of it, etc. I've bought several small orchestra scores off the eBay auction. I'm in the process of making new arrangements of them and will probably ask our community band to try them out. If they like them, then we could perform them at one of our concerts. Who knows, some obscure but nice music may get resurrected this way!
For 1923 and later, some things may be out of copyright if they were not renewed before later laws that automatically extended copyrights to the maximum available term without requiring the copyright holder to submit a renewal. It gets a little complicated as there have been several changes in the law over this time period.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-06-13 14:13
Dee wrote:
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Actually it has nothing to do with musical issues. Anything with an original copyright date before 1923 is now out of copyright and in the public domain.
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Dee - check the Disney ruling. 90 years I believe is the US rule now.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-13 14:20
Mark Charette wrote:
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Dee wrote:
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Actually it has nothing to do with musical issues. Anything with an original copyright date before 1923 is now out of copyright and in the public domain.
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Dee - check the Disney ruling. 90 years I believe is the US rule now.
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I did check it. It only applies to things copyrighted 1923 and later (which DOES pick up Micky Mouse for Disney) and only applies to things whose copyright holders kept their copyrights up to date.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-06-13 14:25
Dee wrote:
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Actually it has nothing to do with musical issues. Anything with an original copyright date before 1923 is now out of copyright and in the public domain.
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No - 95 years now, Dee, in the US. The Sonny Bono Act (also known as the Micky Mouse act informally) was passed. New works can go well over 100 years (70 years after the author's death, not when the work was created. Therefore, if I had a work copyerighted when I was 20, and lived to 80, the copyright would be in force for a total of 130 years! This was done to keep in step with the International copyrights)
Below is a section of the <B>Copyright FAQ</B> from <FONT SIZE=+2><B><A HREF=http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html>http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html</A></B></FONT>
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The Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, signed into law on October 27, 1998, amends the provisions concerning duration of copyright protection. Effective immediately, the terms of copyright are generally extended for an additional 20 years. Specific provisions are as follows:
* For works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection will endure for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. In the case of a joint work, the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author’s death. For anonymous and pseudonymous works and works made for hire, the term will be 95 years from the year of first publication or 120 years from the year of creation, whichever expires first;
* For works created but not published or registered before January 1, 1978, the term endures for life of the author plus 70 years, but in no case will expire earlier than December 31, 2002. If the work is published before December 31, 2002, the term will not expire before December 31, 2047;
* For pre-1978 works still in their original or renewal term of copyright, the total term is extended to 95 years from the date that copyright was originally secured.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-06-13 14:28
Dee - you're right, but it's sure going to be interesting for quite some time. Nothing's going into public domain now for an additional 25 years :^( unless we can get some of today's composers to relinquish rights early.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-13 14:57
It could get very interesting. I was just doing some more surfing of copyright texts on the internet. Did you know that there is a provision in the copyright law that allows you to presume the author is dead after a certain length of time? It gets complicated and I don't particularly care to struggle with it. Anyway, if there is no record filed with the copyright office indicating that the author is living or dead, you are allowed to assume they are dead after the specified time limit and operate accordingly.
What's an interesting exercise, is to take the various changes to the copyright law and layout a time line of registration/expiration dates according to the various changes in the law.
Anyway, as the text you quoted shows, the 1998 law only applied to stuff whose copyright was current. Anything copyrighted before 1923 had already expired. Later items might be out of copyright (and thus uncovered) if they are old enough that they were not covered by some of the laws that made the extension automatic and the author didn't renew, but you would have to submit a request to the copyright office for that info.
The reason that this is of interest to me is that I have many old books from my grandparents that I do not want to risk handling more than absolutely necessary and so have been in the process of copying. These are obscure, long out of print books, not ones of which I could buy a current copy. You really have to stay sharp to get the copy places to cooperate or they will simply take the easy way out and not accept the job of copying.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-18 20:59
Did you now that today's copyright law covers works for electronic media, such as stuff on the Internet and that the copyright protection starts on the very first day the author had the concept in mind? Did you know that all the author has to do to get copyright protection is to put the phrase "Copyright with his/her name and the date of the publication" on the document? Formal item registration with a central authority is no longer required.
That means the Scales files have the full weight of the complete US copyright law in force on this BBS. I'm not a rich lawyer, so I can't do much to enforce the law through civil or criminal courts. However, the work is fully and legally copyrighted as it stands. Feel free to enjoy the product, but please stick to the rules.
For the curious crowd, you might ask, "What is copyrightable in these silly Scales files?" The scales and the modal scales cannot be copyrighted, because they are common knowledge. The fingerings can't be, either (for the same reason). However, the format of the information and the graphical concept for the layout as an entire package is fully copyrightable as a unique idea and a new way to present the information. All pages are copyrighted and protected as such. You can't fetch just the first page and take it. No can do. All pages are protected equally.
And there you have it. Now the cat is out of the bag. Is this being too stringent? After all, the entire thing is free, right? Yes, but it's still copyrighted anyway. Take it or leave it. This is the same for any other copyrighted but commonly available music, such as you would see in the common-as-dirt drill books. The scales themselves can't be copyrighted, and a lot of the other "general knowledge" stuff in these books can't be copyrighted, either. However, the music companies somehow got that nasty little copyright phrase stuck right on page 1, with regular updates of the copyright. That's because the entire book as a package has unique concepts or graphical methods to get the information to the consumer, which is fully copyrightable. All of their pages in their books are copyrighted. Every single one. Plus, as a very important point, they have the cash on hand to enforce at least the worst copyright infringements.
I'll get off my soapbox for now...
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-18 21:12
paul wrote:
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Did you now that today's copyright law covers works for electronic media, such as stuff on the Internet and that the copyright protection starts on the very first day the author had the concept in mind? Did you know that all the author has to do to get copyright protection is to put the phrase "Copyright with his/her name and the date of the publication" on the document? Formal item registration with a central authority is no longer required.
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This has been in effect for quite some time (since the 1978 revision to the copyright law I believe but would need to double check the date on that). Formal registration is worthwhile anyway as they did stick in one little kicker. If it is not registered, you can only make the violater of the copyright stop the violation but you cannot recover damages. You can only collect monetary recompense if you have registered it.
Also formal registration makes it very easy to PROVE that the copyright belongs to you and the date that it took effect.
So the commericial outfits make sure that their works are properly registered. Otherwise they couldn't collect either.
However copyright does not begin at concept. It begins when the work is in "fixed form." That means written down, recorded, computer file generated, etc.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-18 21:37
All very good points in the posting immdiately above. I talked with a copyright lawyer about my product a few months ago. As described to him, everything I did was perfectly okay by the letter of the law. However, Dee, all of your points are very well taken.
Since I gave away the stuff for free, which is my right to do, getting any copyright infrigement compensation would be a pretty tricky arguement in front of a judge. After all, how could I claim financial injury for a product that I freely gave away? All I would really want to do is to stop the infringement, which would be about as far as the ruling would go in the real world anyway.
And yes, I took a legal but very cheap way out. This doesn't mean that I'm restricted from doing more to protect the product, or to sell it in any form I desire later. So, if I were to formally register the product, who would I send it to? What is the cost for registration? Is there any reciept or proof of formal registration?
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-06-18 23:37
If you wish to register it, you register with the government copyright office. The forms are available on line for you to download and print. There is also information about how to submit and what form the submittal has to be in. You'll need to do a search as I've lost the URL. I'm not sure, but I think the cost is $20 for the registration but you can include several works as a collection so it doesn't have to be per piece. Again, I don't know the details. This is the kind of stuff I like to read up on even though I'll probably never use it. Trouble is I read it and then move on to something else!
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-06-21 13:54
Again, thanks Dee.
It's at least worth researching for future reference.
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