 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Carmen Izzo
Date: 2001-11-16 03:32
okay folks! Whip out your C. Rose 32 Etudes book and open er up to Etude number Six. In measure number six, how are you people fingering the c, f#, e#, f# sixteenth note group? This has been bugging me. Thanks!!
~Carmen
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Author: C@p
Date: 2001-11-16 14:52
From the C I roll my right wrist a little to use my thumb and the two side keys for the first f#, let go of the two side keys for e#, back to the two side keys and then roll the left index finger up to the A.
C@p
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-11-16 16:25
There is only one good way to finger this, and it means using the proper 'normal' fingering for the f#. I know it seems illogical, but if you are going to play the clarinet well you MUST be able to produce a perfect legato between the thumb 'f' and the first finger 'f#.'
There are simply too many instances in the literature where this is necessary for you to be able to fake them all.
My advice is to permanently stop using the two side keys for 'f#' other than trills. It will take a year or so, but eventually you will be able to produce good results with the normal fingerings.
The ONLY time I ever use the two side keys for 'f#' that isn't a trill is the opening of the Bernstein Sonata.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-16 17:15
What David Hattner says is absolutely essential, no if's and's or but's about it. Learning the "regular" fingerings on the clarinet and using the chromatic ones only in instances for chromatic passage work will pay great dividends down the line.
And this is not simply a purist type of view. On the contrary, it is quite a practical one. Where the idea got started to use chromatic fingerings instead of regular ones (except in VERY rare cases) is one that I've not understood.
Gregory Smith
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Author: C@p
Date: 2001-11-16 23:48
I was asked how I played it. I wrote how I played it. After reading the comments of David and Gregory, I think I will try it their way. If I would have to play it in a performance, I think I would still play it the way I was used to until I could play it credibly well as suggested.
Meanwhile, I gotta go practice the new way.
C@p
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-11-17 04:43
What exactly are "chromatic fingerings" anyway? Excluding trills, and besides using forked fingerings for B1 natural and F2 sharp, maybe the side throat F sharp or upper right side key combinations for fast passgaes over the break, why would any alternate fingerings be more efficient to use chromaticlly than standard ones?
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Author: William
Date: 2001-11-17 14:56
I just reviewed my old set of Rose 32's and remember how hard I struggled to make that particular meas. work smoothly because my college (PHD) instructor insisted that the chromatic fingering was the "only way." After a lifetime of using the chromatic F#-F fingering and just recently reading the Marcellus interview in which he disdained its use in favor of first finger F#, I have been finding that the "normal" F# fingering feels much more comfortable in many instances where I previoulsy used the chromatic--AND I EXPERIANCED NO DIFFICULTY IN SWITCHING. In fact, I find that keeping the action in one hand rather than trying to coordinate two hands makes more common sense and is much smoother--a more "natural" feel. Just my two cents (sharp??) worth this Sat AM. Good Clarineting, All
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-17 15:43
Do the two f#s sound different? If they don't can't we just leave the fingering up to the player? The side key f# is called an alternative fingering. Can't we choose rather than being told there is only one proper way?
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-17 15:47
Aaallllsssooo, does it matter if we are right or left handed? Using the 2 side keys means we use our right hand more, but alternating from thumb to first finger uses our left hand. I know we should learn both fingerings, but in some circumstances, may we benefit from using the hands we naturally use better???
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-11-17 15:53
Emms,
You have asked a good question.
The reason why Greg Smith and I feel the way we do is because there are times when you really don't have a choice what fingerings to use. And when that happens, you had better be able to achieve a smooth slur between those two notes using the 'normal' fingering.
If you can't, that's a major chink in your technical armor, and it will come up and bite you in the tush someday! So it is best to use the regular fingering all the time. It becomes very natural over time.
Slightly related are the f and f# one octave higher. Although 98% of the time, getting between those notes does not require changing from the first to middle finger directly (or vice versa), on those 2% when you DO have to do so, you have to be able to do so cleanly. That's a tough one, too.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-17 17:16
Also, in the case of the chromatic side F# one ends up playing on the "sides" of the clarinet, hardly a stabilizing force for clarinet and embouchure when playing any passage. One should always strive to keep fingerings on the "top" of the clarinet rather than the sides for stability of sound and in poise of the holding of the instrument.
Gregory Smith
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-17 19:47
Greg / David...That being said, do I assume that your "normal" or preferred fingering for Eb (first line bottom staff) or Bb (above staff) is the small 'trill key' adjacent to the second finger, rather than the right side key? ...GBK
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-17 22:58
No. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. The Bb/Eb fingering you speak of is a chromatic fingering. Descending to the C below the staff from this fingering would of course be impossible.
Besides, using the standard fingering requires a simple straightening of the right index finger to open the key - requiring no more than a "slightly to the side" of the clarinet kind of move - especially if the right hand is in the proper position in the first place. One doesn't rotate their wrist for instance, a far more complicated motion needed in opening the two side trill keys to execute side throat F#.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-11-17 23:54
I guess I'm still coming to grips with the definition of a chromatic fingering. It's been establish the side Eb/D#1, throat Gb/F# and side Bb/A#2 are chromatic fingerings. Are there any others? Are these fingerings universally taught and accepted as such on the Boehm system clarinet?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-18 00:38
Greg...Thanks. That's what I thought you would say...GBK
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-18 10:37
Aaah, Gregory, sorry to be an instigator, but when I play the 2 side keys and thumb F#, my wrist doesn't move. The movement is similar to the Eb side key, just a little movement. If we can play both ways well, but the 2 side keys option feels easier, could we then use this instead?
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-18 13:12
Not meaning to beat Greg to an answer here, Emms, but...listen to the two fingerings carefully. Which one both sounds better and matches better to the tones surrounding it? Also, how is the pitch comparison between the two in the context of the scale?
Except in the most extreme situations (and I can't think of any yet on a Sunday morning!) I will always go for the fingering that sounds and tunes the best--no matter if it is a tad more inconvenient or difficult.
Anyway, if you take a little time to further acquaint yourself with the 'correct' fingering, it will surely seem just as 'easy' as what you are using now.
One of my teachers used to say that "there's no such thing as a hard fingering--just an unfamiliar one!"
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-18 13:53
Emms said
"...when I play the 2 side keys and thumb F#, my wrist doesn't move. The movement is similar to the Eb side key, just a little movement. If we can play both ways well, but the 2 side keys option feels easier, could we then use this instead?
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If one's R.H.position is correct to start with, a simple straightening out of the R. index finger to open the Bb/Eb key at the R.H. second knuckle is all that is necessary. There is no additional movement involved.
To achieve the position of opening the additional next highest trill key simultaneously with the side Bb/Eb/ key requires a rotation of the forearm to properly open the two trill keys with accuracy (perhaps wrist was the wrong physiological reference). This is at first glance a seemingly harmless ineffeciency. But cumulatively speaking, in extended chromatic passages when this fingering is used instead of the regular fingerings, it is not as stabilizing to both the clarinet and embouchure. The clarinet was not designed to be held in this way for this very reason.
Perhaps if you check to see that the R.H. thumb is supporting the clarinet from the top of the thumb (not on the side) with the thumbrest contacting simultaneously both the cuticle and top portion of the thumbnail, then you'll know whether the R.H. is in the position that the clarinet was designed to accomodate.
This then positions the R.H. index finger in a more perpendicular fashion to the instrument with the remaining fingers following in kind to produce a "common curve" to all of the fingers - most importantly including a curved little finger to operate the R.H. spatula keys.
This then also allows the fingers of the R.H. to operate directly up and down from the first knuckle directly over the top of the tone holes where they will move simply and efficiently.
There are numerous advantages to the proper R.H. position but these are just a few to help address your question directly.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-11-18 14:38
My apologies gentlemen for crashing your discussion, I'll move on.
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-18 15:43
Gregory, thanks for your reply. I will try to change. I appologise for asking so many questions, but I really like to get things clear in my mind. Just one more question though. We all have different lengths, etc fingers and hands. Does this ever cause anyone to use a different fingering. I know a teacher who teaches RH B over the break to LH C, which is not what I was taught. She says this is easier for small hands. Also, in playing piano, we are given different fingerings to accomodate different hand shapes. Is this ever the case with clarinet, or should we all learn one way regardless?
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-18 17:55
One case I can think of is the case of double jointedness when the R.H. thumb is unable to support the clarinet in the way I mentioned because it collapses. Other types of cases I've never seen - only those consisting of incorrect habits.
Other than that, the most advantageous R.H. position is the one that is most natural. If one doesn't learn to accomodate the design of the clarinet by using the natural hand position I've described earlier (sometimes with an ever so slight personal variation) then one will never be able to ultimately realize the advantages of its intended design.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-18 18:01
Ken:
Chromatic and trill fingerings are those that are not specified as the regular (or first choice) fingerings on the standard fingering chart of the Klose' (Boehm) system clarinet.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Gerald Taylor
Date: 2001-11-19 00:32
Fascinating! I just tried changing my RH position like Mr. Smith specified - the instrument does seem more stable, and my fingering a bit freer. I had never realized this... I did have to re-position the thumb rest a bit. This will take some getting used to, but I like it!
Thanks Gregory!
Gerald
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-19 09:18
Thanks Gregory. I was taught the side key way, and told the other way was more clumsy and 'lazy!'. Hence the questions. I prefer the other way and will feel better using it now i know the reasons.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-11-19 14:33
THAT'S a reasonable answer. Thank you Mr. Smith. <:-)
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