 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-11-14 23:06
Since attending an Alexander technique workshop last Saturday, I have been thinking that the idea of placing the bell on the knees is a bad one for many clarinetists. At that workshop, I realized that doing that, and the position of the bell being above the knees, may have been forcing me to pull my head and neck backwards, causing problems with my tonguing and response in the high register.
Have any of you found the same thing?
Meri
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-11-14 23:41
You shouldn't rest your bell on your knees for many reasons, including the ones you listed above. This eliminates your ability to have an upward pressure (with your hands) toward your top teeth, an important factor in the production of good tone. One should always support the clarinet without the help of their knee. It's a relatively easy problem to fix.
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-11-14 23:44
Did the workshop suggest that you should or should not place the clarinet bell on your knees? I certainly hope that they suggested this is not a good thing to do.
Resting the bell on your knees is not a very good idea unless your combined torso and neck measurement provide a particular height. Consistency in this measurement from one person to another is not a realistic expectation of nature, probably as likely as the possibility of everyone having the same size feet. This being the case, the act of resting the bell on your knees when you are playing is going to either force you to crane your neck forward or back (depending on your torso-neck height) and likely cause serious imparment in your ability to develop and or maintain a good embouchure. There might also be collateral effects on your breath control and your ability to control pitch with your embouchure
Clarinets have thumb rests on them to assist in the act of supporting them. While it is true that the thumb itself was not very well designed for this, the clarinet is not very heavy either. If you find it too heavy, you might try a neck strap or some wrist exercises. I have known a few people who developed this habit and in my opinion their playing suffered for it. I am glad that I never did. I was always required to stand during my lessons, putting my knees well out of reach.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-11-15 00:04
The workshop didn't suggest that I not rest the bell on the knees; I realized the problem after the workshop.
I don't have problems with the clarinet being too heavy on the right thumb, though. As for neckstraps, I don't think they solve the deeper problems, which can be poor overall hand position and undesirable tension.
Meri
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-15 00:19
I have played clarinet many years and have also witnessed dozens (hundreds??) or other professionals performing in orchestras and recitals.
Try as I might, I can't recall ever seeing one play with the clarinet on the knee.
Neckstraps? Yes
Clarinet held excessively out from the body? Yes
Clarinet held off center? Yes
But... on the knee? No
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-11-15 01:23
"Oh, I come from Alabama
With my <name of instrument> on my knee...."
Banjo? Of course.
Clarinet? Never.
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2001-11-15 02:20
Playing on the knees is how many double lippers play. Additionally, Anthony Gigliotti advocates playing with the bell on one knee. It is easier for taller players than shorter players - that much I concur with some of the above posts. But to categorically reject something because your experience does not include it - well, I don't do that.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-15 02:57
I once read a story in (provably)Tom Ridenour's Alternative fingerings book that late Ralph McLane used this technique enabling right hand thumb finger pushing side keys to correct intonation. Seems not a bad idea.
I hope some professionals elaborate on this matter.
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Author: sarah
Date: 2001-11-15 03:06
What keys would the right hand thumb press?
And if he was trying to correct the intonation by doing this, why not just get the pads fixed. I think that would be a lot easier.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-15 03:07
I believe sometimes, i.e. when playing with string players or singers, excellent clarinet players bend tones to "just tone" or "pure scale". This needs "ears".
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-15 03:20
Sarah...Tom Ridenour offers alternative fingerings for the high notes C, D, D#, E, F, F# and G (starting with the C on the 2nd line above the staff) using the right thumb to open particular keys on the group of 4 right side side keys.
For example: High F# :
TR xxxG# / xxx and use the right thumb to depress top 2 right side keys.
Using these fingerings, give these notes a different quality, sometimes more flute-like, and sometimes better in pitch. However, the clarinet must be supported by the knee to do this...GBK
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Author: sarah
Date: 2001-11-15 03:44
Ok...I understand now. Hiroshi, I have found that anywhere I play and with whatever ensemble I have to bend notes a bit to get them in tune.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-15 04:42
When playing in pp, clarinet becomes sharp but flute becomes flat.
When plalying in ff, cl becomes flat but flute becomes sharp. Also when we play for example do-re-do, re tends to become sharp and when we play for example re-do-re, do tends to become flat. Late trumpet teacher James Stamp said "keep thinking down going up and thinking up going down in order to avoid playing sharp when ascending or flat when descending". To know instruments tendencies of intonation and to know our own psycology seem important for good playing.
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Author: Mark Jordan
Date: 2001-11-15 10:22
If you're asked to play a middle B fortissimo and then drop to pp suddenly you dont have any lower keys to shade so how else can you compensate for the change in intonation? Hold the bell nearer the knee.
Mark
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-15 13:03
The thumb was not designed to carry weight sideways in the manner done with a clarinet. Some people have severe problems with this damaging their thumb joints. Using knee support may be easier for them than using a neck strap or special thumb rest that transfetrs the weight closer to the wrist.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2001-11-15 13:14
Amazing how positive some are that resting the bell on the knee is categorically bad. However, it is difficult to do while standing. When playing in a sitting position I play both with and without the bell on one or the other knee. I am tall,started playing in 1939 and do have carpal tunnel problems in my right wrist. Without resting the bell on a knee from time to time my right hand fingers go numb. As far as applying upper pressure this can be done with the knee as well as the thumb. The only problem with the knee position is the wet spot on the trouser leg.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-11-15 14:01
Many fine players rest the clarinet on the legs or knees while playing. It's not a universal nono.
But, it is best to be able to play standing up at any time. This means that you have to practice that way.
Just be aware that if you rest the clarinet all the time, you may not be able to play any other way.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-11-15 14:14
Hat,
I thought most double-lip players DO rest the clarinet on their knees, and that many of them can't or have great difficulty playing standing up? From an earlier thread about double-lip, I found out that there is apparently a reasonably high percentage of double-lippers playing professionally. If they don't use their knees to support the clarinet, then what do they do?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-15 14:52
Both David's make good points about the drawback to using the knee: If the player totally depends on the knee for support, than trying to adjust to playing while standing is VERY difficult. Perhaps that is why we were all taught to play without the knee when we first began.
By the way, Richard Stoltzman (double lip player) performed standing up the last time (and every time) I've ever seen him solo with orchestra...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-11-15 15:13
I play double lip, but even before I switched, I rested the bell on my knee a lot. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.
Alvin Swiney, a Moennig apprentice, wrote that Moennig put a longer barrel on Robert Marcellus's A clarinet and opened up all the holes. See http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/05/000596.txt . To make up for the longer barrel, Moennig shortened the bell, which made the E/B sharp. As a result, said Greg Smith, Marcellus played his A clarinet with his ankles crossed and the bell between his knees, to bring down the pitch of the E/B. See http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/2000/06/000932.txt .
Perhaps David Hattner can confirm this and let us know whether Marcellus did the same thing with his Bb clarinet.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-15 15:33
I knew a European double-lip (or double-embouchure) player who played with the mouthpiece rotated upside-down, so the reed was touched by the top lip. He was a professional.
He bent his head down and tucked his chin more, then held the clarinet fairly perpendicular to his face, perhaps tilted up slightly more than that.
It was a strange sight. His top lip was situated about half way down the reed, while the bottom lip only took in about a small part of the mouthpiece.
I'm surprised I remembered it so vividly, because this was a long time ago, before I took up the clarinet.
While he was no virtuoso, he did manage to play well enough, I suppose. Although I'm not sure how much I was into clarinet specifics, as regards what constitutes "good" playing back then.
He could never have rested the bell on his knees, his head would have never supported the angle.
I read somewhere an article that someone (not a professional) used a board accross his knees to rest the bell in the center, between the knees.
I don't know if he was tall, or what, and don't remember if he had some handicap. He said it worked for him.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-15 20:23
Well actually Ken, he played both clarinets rested on the knees with his legs crossed and the A cl. bell was shortened as well as the Bb.
Although he could play anything and everything otherwise, he chose to rest the bell on the top of the knees for tonal sonority in particular. He believed (and one could certainly hear) that the sound was superior this way compared to when he stood or simply sat with the bell up off of the knees. The conscious decision to hold the clarinet within a certain proximity to the body was actually in part responsible how he decided to shape his tonal sonority.
He did practice now and then standing - as he had his students do occasionally - for the purpose of understanding how to "hold" the clarinet firmly and "still" and with "poise" as he would demonstrate. But once the work or passage was learned, the same "holding" of the clarinet would be required EVEN while resting on the knees. His effort was to "clean house" and then sit in the best position for tonal sonority.
If you haven't tried the experiment, listen to or play for someone standing and then sitting in these two positions. One can make up one's own mind for themselves re: sound.
Gregory Smith
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-11-15 23:11
I think Greg Smith covered this issue very well re: sound quality.
I can only speak from my own experience that playing the clarinet standing up is more physically taxing on both the embochure and the hands.
It is also my experience that when someone is stretched towards the limits of their abilities on the clarinet, the sound will suffer to some degree.
So not only is playing sitting down easier, but because of this you MAY sound better.
As for the double-lippers, I would hate to speak for them, but it seems to me MOST of them make every effort to avoid playing in a standing position (Stolzman being an exception).
With Marcellus, in his later years he lost all of his upper teeth, so he had no choice as to how to play. His dentures were not stable enough to permit standing performance.
Everyone should try practicing standing, unless you have tendenitis issues or play double lip. Even if only for 10-15 minutes a day. It's amazing how tough it is.
When I was doing heavy technical work on the Jettel and other stuff I recorded, I practiced it standing. It was tiring, but it was much easier when I started playing seated.
In my experience, if I have a performance that requires me to stand and play for more than a few minutes, I have to do all my practicing standing for at least two months. Otherwise, my embochure will not be solid enough.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-16 02:05
Just a thought.
I started recently alto blockflote in key of F just last month. To emit a certain range out of standard range, players have to 'close' a part of the bell by the thigh, although these fingerings are not shown in standard fingering charts provided by manufacturers. Interesting effects may be available if one experiments this technique with his clarinet.
The reason why a certain type of player likes to play clarinet on the knees, which will block some of the air flow, may be that air inside the horn is a little pressurized and this may cause an improvement of tone quality.
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-11-16 05:08
it's a bit late in the day for me to add my 10 cents worth.... but here goes
one- as stated, a number of top players, most notably Gigliotti, do or have played with the clarinet on or between their knee/s....
i am quite tall, so for me this can be done (resting on knee) quite comfortably. If i have to practise for more than 3 or 4 hours in a single day, by playing this way (clarinet on knee) for, say, 30 minutes out of every hour i greatly reduce fatigue. i personally never play in public with my clarinet on my knee......
..... except when playing the orchestral excerpt for Mendlsonns Midsummer night dream Scherzo- i find that here it makes it easier for me to match the B natural with the A at the start of this excerpt, both in Tone and Intonation.
However, many people play this piece well without doing this, and i'm not such a big sucess in this game anyway... BUT i do find that when i have to practise for very long hours, it is very effective at reducing fatigue. I remember Mr Gigliotti making a comment to this end in a masterclass a few years ago.
nzdonald
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Author: Zabooda
Date: 2001-11-16 06:46
Okay, here goes... I play with my clarinet between my knees, i also double lip. I guess I can confirm from 1st hand experience that it is possible to play the clarinet with it resting between your legs without having negative affects on your playing. As far as GBK's post about having seen many professionals play and never once seeing them play with the Clarinet between their knees, i must say that i too have seen professionals play and those that double lipped did play with the clarinet between their knees... i even saw a play stand and play while resting the clarinet on their knee... I guess it's just a matter of one's capability to play in that position... i find that with my A it's easier to play with the clarinet between my knees where's with my Bb it's easier to have it closer to my body and off of my knees, also because the A is longer than the Bb... hahaha... newayzzz... it's late and i'm starting to ramble.... Chaucito...
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-11-17 22:21
I practice both standing up (so I know that I CAN play this way) and sitting down, and when I sit down, the clarinet is often rested on my knee for different reasons, including (most often) resting my right hand, pitch, tone/timbre/color changes, and dynamic changes. (Sometimes I will bring the bell closer in, or under my thighs to make differences between pp and ppp dynamic markings when I am already playing very softly). I have also used the method of stuffing the bell between my legs into the fabric of my chair (with a little room for the air to escape) for a written low Eb! (It was on A clarinet, so no option of switching horns to get the note).
PS Ridenour also has a great throat Bb fingering which uses the LH thumb on the top trill key of the top joint--impossible w/o resting the bell on the knee. The timbre of this fingering is unbeatable and I have used it in performance--though it is only practical for slow passages!
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