 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-07 04:29
A funny story related to me about the former principal clarinetist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1953 to 1978, Clark Brody, regarding the rediculously low number of reeds that actually play out of an entire box of Vandorens.......
While in Paris on tour with the Chicago Symphony, Clark Brody went to the Vandoren factory where at the time, he was personally invited to play through and select reeds to take home with him.
The founder, Robert Vandoren also invited him on a grand tour of the factory and reed making facilities and in the process introduced him to the various highly skilled workers along the way. Duly impressed, Brody complimented Vandoren on his reed company while Vandoren showed great delight in hearing high praise from such a prestigious (American!) clarinetist.
Brody then proceeded to take Robert Vandoren aside and ask him in a droll fashion, "Would you now please introduce me to the worker in your factory responsible for putting the one good reed in each box?"
Needless to say, Robert Vandoren was not impressed.
G. Smith
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Author: allencole
Date: 2001-11-07 04:35
RV might not be impressed, but I can sure relate! Thanks for a great story.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-07 04:37
That same worker is still there today...unfortunately.
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Author: Karel Vahala
Date: 2001-11-07 07:34
Perhaps fortunately, or there would be no playable reeds in a box. Hmmm... Karel.
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Author: Roger
Date: 2001-11-07 11:53
Doesn't this mean that vandoren reeds are really high priced? one per box, given the price of a box, mean that that one reed is really expensive?
I suspect however, that no 2 people would find the same reed the good reed in the box!
Seriously Mr. Smith, thank you for a great story.
By the way, have you ever considered buying blanks and making your own reed?
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Author: Katfish
Date: 2001-11-07 12:34
In 1965 I was in Paris and stopped at the Vandoren factory to buy reeds. They led me to a room, gave me a tray of about 100 reeds. There were 5 or 6 people in the room, each with their own tray. We proceeded to try out reeds at our leisure, keeping only the ones we wanted. I was a starving college student at the time and only could affford 2 boxes. I always suspected that they sent the rejected reeds to the states.
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-11-07 13:32
I have been to Bormes les Mimosas for holiday, and have been to Vandoren as it was in the same place as my camping. They weren't at all helpful. I wasn't even allowed to take the plastic away from the boxes to even look at the reeds. Even though I had told them I was a student of Mr this and that, famous players ..etc... Nothing ! They said I could buy a whole box for a price that was actually more expensive than what I played for usually in Switzerland. I don't know how they are in Paris, maybe more helpfull, but I'm never stepping a foot back in the Bormes factory.
About that one reed per box, I have noticed that it depends on what type of reeds you buy.
I used to play french mouthpieces with Vandoren standards and V12s and indeed you would only have one or two good reed per box.
Since a short time I play on a Viotto N1 (german mouthpiec) with White Master reeds. Amazingly, nearly the whole box was playable. Having told this to my teacher Bas de Jong (who has regular contact with Heinz Viotto, importing his mouthpieces for whole of Holland and developping mouthpieces with Heinz).
He then told me a story to explain me this phenomenon. A couple of years ago (I don't know exactly) Vandoren decided they would make concurence to German Reed market. The big problem was that German people didn't want to have anything to do with french people (concurence of the two main schools), and Vandoren knew this. They decided then to invite important German players to develop a new type of reed (thinking that if major players would switch to Vandoren, then other players would follow). At that time, and still today most german players played the "Viotto bahn" and thus this type of reed is specifically developped for Viotto mouthpieces. de Jong explained me then that I had made a good choice switching to viotto mouthpieces because I would then save some money, and that the 150 $ investment was after all not so expensive.
I don't know yet on a long term basis if there are more good reeds per box whitemasters than normal french reeds. But who knows.
Gregory you would probably have more experience with that since you play viotto with white master (am I right ?) as well as french mouthpieces with french Vandoren reeds.
Best Regards
Daniel Bouwmeester
Delft, Holland
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-07 14:58
Ben Armato's Reed Wizard may generate more usable reeds per box. It has been a while since I played on Vandorens, but I have a couple of cigar boxes full of previously unusable reeds and will see what happens.
Disclaimer: I am not in any connected with Reed Wizard or Mr. Armato.
P.S. It is not just the reed companies that have quality issues. A number of years ago, a repair tech here in Michigan told me he had sent Buffet-Crampon a handful of International Reply Coupons, asking for a dozen of every size screws they used on their instruments in the last 15 years. Buffet returned the IRC's with a letter stating that it was impossible to fulfill his request, since they did not know what size screws their suppliers had used. D'oh!
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-07 15:22
To be quite honest Daniel, the Viotto German N1 mouthpiece that I play on my Wurlitzer (Oehler system) clarinets accepts only 1 reed per every *2* boxes! And this no matter what reed brand/strength - although the White Master 2 1/2 or 3's are the only reeds that come close to working. My colleague Larry Combs plays the same set up and finds exactly the same thing. We have just the opposite problem as you do with similar mouthpieces.
As far as the French Viotto mouthpieces and their facings go, I am unable to get any reeds to work well at all with my French Buffet R13's, including the V12 cut. Perhaps that is because Viotto's facing/interior style is so dissimilar to my own personal handmade French style mouthpieces that I make and play regularly.
Gregory Smith
PS. I do not have time to make my own reeds. V12 3.5's are what I use - (one or perhaps two per box of course!).
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-11-07 17:39
I just opened a box of Vandorens and I guess the guy who puts the one good one in the box was on vacation the day they packaged this box! A fun story...Brody, I believe, was playing Morres and Glotins in the last years he was with the CSO.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-11-07 20:27
The guy who puts the good reed in every box (most boxes?) of Vandorens is not the one I want to meet. I want the guy who slips in the seven or so (for me, anyway) *Unplayables*, so I could get rid of that clown.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-11-07 20:44
In some recent Vandoren advertisement appearing in "The Clarinet", Vandoren (throught the endorsement of a well-known clarinetist whose name escapes me at the moment - I am on the road again...), says something like:
"Every Vandoren box contain reeds of different strength so that you can have reeds for all occasions."
No kidding!
Of course, I paraphrase from memory here. If somebody has the last few issues of "The Clarinet" at hand, please post the exact details here.
What a load of chicken feed. In Marketing, this is called "positioning" - trying to create a mental picture in people's mind that convey value where there is little. For product developpers, these "undocument features" are most commonly known as "defects". For Users, these amount to being ripped-off.
Vandoren has obviously hired a marketing genius. They should hire brilliant QC specialists instead in order to deliver a consistent product.
Now, we must also remember that Vandoren has the lion share of the market. That's the kind of behavior, in all Industry, that you see from the market share leader.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-11-07 20:51
Actually, thinking about it a little more, I think that the "positioning statement" in the add was more like: "Every box contains reeds of slightly different strengths so that you can always find a few that work for you."
Glad to read (no pun here) that Vandoren itself expect only a few reeds per box to pass muster.
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Author: Joseph O'Kelly
Date: 2001-11-07 22:18
I actually have no problem with Vandorean reeds. I usually rework them when I get them and end up with all working reeds. Sometimes I'm unfortunate and have a few unplayables
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-08 00:57
I'm a sponsor of this site. You'll find a link to the sponsor page at the top of this page, then click on my add to connect to the website.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-08 03:27
My questions are:
1)Are Vandoren reed canes from French Var region?
2)Climatized reeds in France do not work in other states?
3)Why Vandoren's tip is thickening?
(There are measured data by Mr. Kitazume, whose data shows older Vandoren reeds had thinner tips.)
4)Why Vandoren makes unsymmertrical tip reeds?
(Intentionally or they does not like changing tooling?)
5)What part of Vandoren reeds are diamond cut?
(only tip? not on bottom surface?)
p.s. Personally, I believe rounding the corners of reeds improves the reed vibration continuity, with no evidence.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-08 04:15
JMcAulay said:
The guy who puts the good reed in every box (most boxes?) of Vandorens is not the one I want to meet. I want the guy who slips in the seven or so (for me, anyway) *Unplayables*, so I could get rid of that clown.
==================================================
I find myself laughing aloud at this.....absolutely hilarious.
Touche'!
Gregory Smith
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-11-08 06:44
These are fun stories but don't players work on Vandoren reeds to make sure that they are good? I always work on V12's more than once before trying them and, later, after trying them to fix them if they need it. As a result, very few need to be discarded.
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-11-08 10:45
ummmmm
i have this feeling that if every reed were identical in a box of ten, then a couple of people would say "wow, a great box" and everybody else would go "damm, not a single reed that works" (or maybe, "these reeds are ok, but not quite right"). Just a theory- but maybe the variety is what keeps everyone happy (and annoyed at the same time). I recall someone from Vandoren being interviewed in The Clarinet, and being very eager to dispell the rumour that the dud reeds were sent to the USA. Maybe they get sent to NZ? i'm pretty sure that the dud Buffet clarinets are, i've seen some shockers in the music stores....
donald
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-11-08 14:25
There has been a lot of discussion over the years about variation in Vandoren strength within boxes. At least one poster was told by a high Vandoren official that this is intentional. See http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/Equipment/Reeds/Consistency.html .
Those of us old enough to remember when Vandorens came in boxes of 25 will recall that the labels said that there was variation. A box of "Medium" was also labelled, as I recall, "2-1/2 to 3," and a box of "Medium-Strong" was labelled "3-1/2 to 4."
Frankly, I doubt that cane reeds can be reliably graded, without being played, in anything smaller than 1/2 strength increments. The density of Vandoren cane varies too much for finer grading, and at least for me, no about of eyeballing has revealed anything close to what a half-second beep the mouthpiece shows.
And anyway, my prep work on reeds includes sanding the bottom and balancing the vamp, so I intentionally reeds a full number harder than they will end up.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Jordan
Date: 2001-11-08 16:49
2 thoughts on reed relyability.
Firstly I remember reading a book years ago by (I think) Keith Stein, which recommended soaking the reeds in water then holding them on a flat surface and rubbing hard with the fingers. This, repeated 2 or 3 times gets rid of the white starchy stuff that normally comes off on your m.p. and compresses the fibres, so the reed doesn't change so much when you blow it. Finally rub the flat side of the reed up and down on the mirror to ensure it is really flat. I find this makes them last longer and not need 'blowing in'.
Second I always have 3 or 4 mouthpieces which I can use, so when I've rubbed the reeds I try each one on each m.p. to find which one it works best on. This gives me a remarkably high percentage of usable reeds. That's with ordinary Vandorens.
Another point about having more than 1 m.p. is the possibility of having 1 on the Bflat and 1 on the A in pieces that involve quick changes, but mostly my remembrance of my teacher Sidney Fell. (a fantastic player in his days in the London Symphony Orch. have you guys ever heard him) who lost his clarinets (Martell) in a car crash, including the m.p. he'd played ALL his life and NEVER found one he was happy with again. It more or less ended his career. Apart from the reed advantage it must be a good idea
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-11-08 20:10
A great story. But Pamela Weston tells the same one of Stanley Drucker.
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Author: Lisa Chien
Date: 2001-11-08 20:51
Junior and senior year when I was at university studying clarinet performance a group four of us (sometimes five) would pass off our unplayable reed to the others. The process went something like this. I would go through a box of Vandoren V12's select the reeds I liked and then pass the the "rejects" to one of my fellow students (there was always a minimum of six "rejects." They would then test my "rejects" and then pass the rest along.
Eventually, all four or five of us had a chance to sample each other's "rejects. We would initial the box until it made the rounds and we would get our original box.
What typically happened is that very few of those "reject" reeds ever got picked up by anyone else. We had some really good players working on them also. One of our members. a former bassoonist was extremely meticulous about working on her reeds. We would let the boxes of unplayables pass to everyone else first and then she was usually the last to try them because her modifications were so extensive that it wouldn't be fair. Most often even she would not be able to transform those unplayable Vandorens into playables.
Fast forward a couple of years. When I was in Paris I bought three boxes of V12 from a music store (I thought with the strong dollar they would be much cheaper but the savings wasn't that great). I tested them and in each box on average about 6 turned into excellent performance reeds and the others were adequate practice reeds.
Now when my Parisian friends come to visit I ask them for one or two boxes. On each one I mark "Paris" I then will start breaking them in in time for an important performance. These boxes marked "Paris" always have many more high quality reeds.
I don't know why it is that Vandoren Reeds have such a small number of unplayable reeds per box. Yet Parisian bought reeds have a much higher percentage of excellent reeds. Your guess is as good as mine.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-09 01:25
Yes, I've seen that story about S.D. I've always assumed that in any case, the story is somewhat apocryphal.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-11-09 02:09
I've always found Vandoren reeds to have a high number of playable reeds per box. It baffles me that some people have such great difficulty finding suitable reeds.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-11-09 04:25
I'm with Dee on this one. What I don't understand is, with all the other professional brands out there (pretty readily available through the mail order places), why do so many of you keep buying Vandorens if you know (or at least believe) that you will only get one or two playable reeds per box. This does not make sense to me. Or is the problem generic rather than specific to Vandoren (only one playable Grand Concert or Zonda or whatever per box as well.) Could it be that Vandoren spikes their reeds with some kind of drug to make them addictive? Or are they holding your children hostage? Their marketing can't be that good. Or is the one good reed per box so good that it makes buying the box worthwhile?
What makes you keep buying them? Also, for those of you who find Vandorens (or any other brand for that matter) unplayable, what is your most common complaint/reason for rejecting one of their reeds. You've really piqued my curiosity here because I use Vandoren regulars (3 and 3.5) and I would guess that I average 9 useable reeds (without alot of work -- I'm not particularly good at working reeds) per box. I'm certain that Greg Smith (and others among you who have posted) are capable of discerning subtle differences in reeds that I am not capable of noticing. And, if I had Greg's job, I would probably be more picky than I am. Still ... Maybe ignorance is bliss.
Best regards,
jnk
Stumped in St. Louis
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 12:16
I'm with Jack and Dee on this also, but what do I know!
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Author: William
Date: 2001-11-09 14:49
A couple of years ago, my wife and I decided to rebuild the second story deck off the faimly room of your twenty year old home. When the bundle of fourteen treated 2X12's for the floor of the deck were delivered by the lumber company, we sorted through the pile to make certain that we had recieved what we ordered. And, dejavue (sp?) suddenly struck--it reminded me of going through a box of V-12's the day before. None of the boards were "uniform"-- four were warped beyond use, two had had rough edges but were usable (construction grade), one was split (usuable reject), and most had some knots but were usable, and about three were excellant with good coloring, straight edges and cleanly cut ends. But unlike my box of V-12's, we were able to take back the 2X12's that were usuable and go through the companies stock pile of boards and select ones to replace the defective originals. The problem with the boards--and reeds, regardless of the manufacturer--is that wood does not grow uniformly and even with precise cutting specifications, it is impossible to predict the consistancy of the finished product, be it a 2X12 or a V-12 3.5. But wouldn't it be nice to be able--like with our friendly local lumber company--to take our rejects back to the VD "stock pile" at our local music store and be able to select replacement "planks" for our clarinets? Just a thought--Good Clarineting, Everyone!!!!!
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-09 15:15
Jack said:
"What I don't understand is, with all the other professional brands out there (pretty readily available through the mail order places), why do so many of you keep buying Vandorens if you know (or at least believe) that you will only get one or two playable reeds per box. This does not make sense to me."
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Jack,
It's because that the one or two V12 3.5 style that end up being concert reeds (even after a bit of adjustment) are what I perceive that I sound best and feel most comfortable playing. I have to go with what works best for me. I also learned long ago for a multitude of reasons not to spend time playing or practicing at any time on anything other than the best of the reeds that I can find, for even those reeds are minimally capable in many cases of doing what I require of them. This has just been my own experience. Of course I can't speak for others.
I take no joy in knowing that I'm paying dearly to do this and that no matter what I do to adjust the 'remaining' reeds out of a box of 10 - on no matter what brand or style of mouthpiece over the years - the remainders simply will not allow me to ultimately sound my best. So I spend my time practicing and on other things that will help maintain, improve, and expand my playing abilities. To be quite honest, this is also what I find in talking to many of my colleagues. So in my opinion I have to assume that it's the quality and consistency of the reeds (some - including the manufacturer - may justifiably refer to it simply as "variability") that are the culprit.
In the end though, I really am unable to give an objective answer to your question. In many cases like my own, perhaps we're just too picky!
Gregory Smith
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-09 17:30
Greg...I must say it is rather comforting to hear that you experience the exact same percentages of "playables" as the rest of us, and even with your vast knowledge of reed adjusting, acoustics, and mouthpiece design, you are still not doing a whole lot better than the rest of us aspiring concert artists.
Any other reed related stories (or horrors) of your current colleagues are certainly welcomed here, as it gives us a glimpse into the world of the "pros".
You did find a great reed for your recital at Clarinetfest this summer. Did you have a number of good back up reeds ready just in case? How old was the one you finally did use (days, weeks)?
Lastly, the mouthpiece I purchased from you this summer is GREAT. Thanks...GBK (This is not a paid commercial)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-11-09 19:13
Actually Greg, your answer makes a great deal of sense to me. Also, I interpret your story (and most of the subsequent messages) as a humerous comment on the state of the world rather than a criticism of Vandoren's quality assurance. As I reread the earlier messages, though, I find myself in agreement with the posts by Don Nichols and Ken Shaw, i.e., (1) any grading of reeds (whether objective or subjective) is doomed to imprecision and must have a wide range of error and (2) within any grade strength, some clarinetists will prefer the reeds at the heavy end and some will prefer the reeds at the light end; some will prefer reeds from relatively dense cane and some will prefer reeds for less dense cane, some will prefer the ones that taste sweet and some will not, and so on. More precise grading, and grading on multiple characteristics might be a solution but it's probably beyond existing technology and, even if possible, would likely increase the cost of a reed dramatically. (Consider Vandoren's "hand select" reeds. Regardless of how one feels about whether the reeds are better, they are certainly more pricey.) So maybe Vandoren's approach isn't unreasonable -- consciously vary the reeds in a box so that anyone buying a particular strength will find a couple of decent ones, even if their range of acceptability is fairly narrow. Those (apparently like me) who can tolerate a wider range of strengths will find even more useable reeds. This may maximize the percentage of their overall sales that are judged "useable" by the buyer. Also, under this approach, even if one has to throw eight away, the cost per reed for the two really good ones may be less than the cost of two "tailor-mades." Vandoren can't introduce the guy who puts the good reed in each box because they don't know who he is. His identity is ex post dependent on who bought the box.
There has been a full page ad running for awhile now in one of the mail-order catalogs (I think) for Rigotti Gold reeds. The ad touts their consistency and the precision in their measurement. I took the bait and bought a few boxes to see if the claim was justified. In that admittedly small sample, for me (with my mouthpiece, ligature, clarinet, etc.) there was just as much variation as in a typical box of Vandorens.
In your case, I'll wager a pizza that you have tried about every brand out there. What you have found is that, however low that value might be, Vandoren V12's give you more value for your money than any other brand. That reduces your alternatives to do-it-yourself or buy Vandoren's. As you point out, in your case, an hour spent practicing (or working on a mouthpiece) pays a better return than making reeds so the choice is obvious. I suspect, however, that there are at least some clarinetists out there, particularly younger ones, who might find it worth their while to try a couple of boxes of Grand Concerts or Zondas or, if they are playing on 4's or 5's (maybe even 3.5 regulars) and not finding many useable reeds, to try dropping back to a 3 or 3.5.
Actually, I envy you that you have found the reed that works best for you. I can't decide between Grand Concerts, Zondas and Vandorens. Just about the time I decide that I can eliminate one of the three as clearly not as good as the other two, I get a couple that play great and last forever. (Not really a bad thing, actually.)
Best regards,
Jack
I don't see how anyone can quarrel with any part of your answer, except perhaps the part where you suggest you may be too picky. You set the bar very high but (it seems to me) in your situation, you have to. And, in any case, who can argue with a credo of doing everything you can to make yourself the best you can be. To me, that's the definition of professionalism.
The clarinet is your livelihood. Your bass clarinetist (is it still Lawrie Bloom?) has to play a top-of-the-line low C professional instrument (perhaps tweaked by the Brannens) because of its intonation and capabilities. The bass clarinetist for a community orchestra, or the occasional community or high school musical, or a high school band can do very well with an intermediate or student low-Eb instrument. The top of the line usually costs more. Given the number of hours you spend and have spent playing your clarinets, I suspect you have probably tried just about every variety of reed out there. You find that a box of Vandorens yields you one or two superb reeds -- a better track record than any of the others -- so you buy Vandorens. Even at an effective cost of $8 or $9 (based on WW&BW prices and Vandorens are available for less), the Vandorens are probably a better economic choice than the alternative of making your own. (It could be worse. You could play oboe or bassoon.)
But I suspect that, even if Vandoren could isolate the variables that make a reed perfect for you and put only reeds with those characteristics in a box, the cost per reed would be at least as high (probably higher) and the number of people satisfied with a box would probably decline. But the fact that a clarinetist only finds about 20% of the reeds s/he tries acceptable doesn't mean that the reed manufacturer's quality assurance procedures are inadequate. What makes a reed acceptable to you -- how it works with your embouchure, mouthpiece, barrel and instrument -- is unique. That's why I posed the general question to everyone following this thread.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-11-09 19:19
Oops. The stuff below my signature on that last post was initial rough draft which I did not intend to include in my final message. I had spaced it so far down while I was working on the final draft that I didn't realize it was still there until after I hit the post button. Another senior moment! [sigh] Please disregard it.
Best regards,
Jack
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-11-09 20:51
Jack,
It's OK --- your "extended post" was well worth reading! I fully agree with you about the bass clarinets (as an amateur/semi-pro bass clarinetist who is doing just fine with a low-Eb-only Kohlert bass clarinet, even though I drool with envy whenever I see a Buffet 1193 or Selmer 37!).
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-09 23:32
GBK said:
"Did you have a number of good back up reeds ready just in case? How old was the one you finally did use (days, weeks?)
==========================================================
I had a Debussy reed (which always has it's own special requirement) that I had performed the piece on a few days earlier. It was in it's prime - 5 or 6 days old). It was what one would call a $75 - 100 reed since it was a product of the best reed from about 4 - 5 boxes.There was a back - up and it was an old clunk that was stable but not as colorful or flexible.
The Bartok and Gershwin took a very resonsive but very solid reed in order to play and glissando up into the 3rd register altissimo (B'''') for the Gershwin and it was also the product of several boxes. I had a back - up for that one too which I would have considered an old clunk.
Hope this is informative.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-10 01:36
Jack,
Your post is very informative. The consistency of V12 cane I cannot speak to but:
I do know that Vandoren puts reeds in a box of ten of the same strength from several different machines. In other words - 10 reeds - 5 machines have produced 2 each of a V12 3.5 strength. EVERY box has 2 reeds from each of these 5 machines. I assure you from experience that these machines produce reeds of differing chacteristics but are of course all capable of producing the same usual reed strengths (2 - 5).
Now if they manufactured specific boxes of reeds that distinguished from which machine a box of V12 3.5 reeds eminated, perhaps that would make clearer the choice of what subset of V12 3.5's to use. For instance, there would be 5 types of V12 3.5's (perhaps in gradings of A,B,C,D,E for example) each letter denoting from what machine the reed was manufactured. Same strength, different machines, different qualities, separate out the 5 types - each having their own designated box and there's less waste per box for the consumer. More expensive for them? I doubt it. Not by much anyway. They could be marketed as V12 "select" in A,B,C etc, or some such thing.
BUT - and this is the big but - why shouldn't Vandoren leave well enough alone? Why should the industry leader in reed/mouthpiece sales around the world take a risk of "confusing the market" as the corporate line goes? Plus they say, if these variables within the factory were marketed as such it would be too costly for Vandoren, the distributors, etc. (and they then would have to pass it on to the consumer - another risk of losing market share being the raising of prices for the risk of making these distinctions that I'm talking about).
If they truly believe it's in the best interest of the world's clarinetists to have FEWER distinctions made available for our choice, knowing better than we do about what we need, then in my opinion they are more concerned with the bottom line than pleasing the huge variety of clarinetists worldwide as they say they want to do.
Putting a "variety of reeds" in each box for the varying needs of differing clarinetists? Sure...it's called mass marketing, that's all.
Gregory Smith
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-11-10 04:57
Maybe we should collect all of the unuseable reeds from everyone and donate them to some school for would-be clarinet players.
Or we could have a party game called find the playable reed. It could replace "pin the tail on the donkey"
have fun and enjoy everyday.
bob
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-10 06:25
I had heard a story (which I cannot verify) that Stoltzman doesn't throw away any of his poorer reeds. Instead, he has a table for all his discards, and all the reeds are in a big pile. I believe he refers to them as his "skeleton bones", and occassionally he will dip into the pile from time to time to retry a few - sometimes actually finding one that now works. Ghosts??? Interesting if true... GBK
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Author: Hans
Date: 2001-11-10 17:24
Although I am a novice-restarter, I also noticed the big differences between the Vandoren reeds. However, untill now I get more playable reeds out of my boxes (at least 50%) but his undoubtedly has to do with the fact that I am not an experienced player. Some of the unplayable reeds really sound awfull, imposible to get a good sound out of them.
By the way, I bought my box of Vandorens in Holland but live -and play- in Mexico. Some of you suggested -perhaps a joke- that Vandoren exports bad quality to certain countries. I guess that's just a myth. Everybody has his or her own criteria, a good reed for one player might be a bad reed for another. I am glad I am not a reed producer.
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-11-11 01:00
My 2 cents:
I have given lots of other brands a chance, and I still have found nothing that beats a (good) Vandoren reed for tone, reliability, longevity, consistency over time, response, and ease of articulation. So, to answer the question asked earlier: yes, it is worth buying a whole box for one gem reed. That one (or sometimes two or three) reed(s) will last me quite a while once broken in, so it is worth it to me--I go through about two boxes a month playing 4 or more hours a day.
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Author: James Snell
Date: 2001-11-14 07:58
I had the same experience in 1985 in Paris. However, at that time I was apparently too old or too Amercain to be perceived as a student and was not allowed into the back room with all the tootling French "students". They were clearly picking out reeds and, I suspect, leaving others for the unchosen. At that time the shop was in Montmartre.
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Author: sat
Date: 2001-11-14 15:43
I'm a latecomer to this thread, but I'll put in my two cents anyway.
I play on Vandoren V-12s, to which I routinely make minor adjustments. I can probably count on the fingers of my two hands the number of Vandorens (V-12s and blue box) I've encountered that weren't ridiculously unbalanced at the tip (the left side is almost always much thicker than the right). Once they are balanced and properly broken in, I'd say I usually get 6-7 reeds out of a box that I'm willing at least to practice on, and maybe 2-4 of those that I'd perform on. The adjustments I make are a matter of habit for me now; they are second nature and don't take much time or mental effort.
I stick with Vandorens because after years of working with them, I now know exactly what to do to them. And as others have said, I have never found another brand of reed that gave me the same richness of sound as a good Vandoren. That said, they are obviously not the reed for everyone, particularly if you're not willing to either discard a whole bunch of them or can't or don't want to adjust your own reeds (it's really not that tricky or time-consuming, unless you become obsessed!) I got into the habit of working my reeds when I was a penniless clarinet major in college; my financial situation is a lot better now, but since the clarinet is not my livelihood, I see no reason to spend too much of my money on it. At any rate, expecting Vandorens to play consistently well (and the same) right out of the box isn't reasonable. They are still the best reeds for the money if you're willing to spend a little time on them.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-11-14 17:11
I would agree with sat's assessment of the V12 and the method of adjustment that is used. Anything beyond that adjustment generally kills the reed since it is so well balanced elsewhere on the vamp anyway. I find that "sealing" the reed is also required to stabilize the rather low density, porous cane which is a characteristic of the V12 in particular.
If these two proceedures are followed, I get the usual 1 or possibly 2 concert reeds per box.
Gregory Smith
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Author: sat
Date: 2001-11-14 21:35
Yes, absolutely. Sealing is also completely necessary for V12s. And I agree with you that that and balancing the tip are usually the only adjustments I'm willing to make. In my experience, if the reed doesn't play well after having those things done to it, it's never going to.
I think this is a really fascinating discussion. I'm used to hearing so much about equipment -- but not enough about reeds and what, if anything, people do to make them sound good. I've especially enjoyed your input, Mr. Smith. Thanks.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-11-17 17:48
Can anyone go into a little more detail regarding how they determine which side of a reed tip needs adjusting and how they adjust that side?
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The Clarinet Pages
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