 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: George L Smyth
Date: 2001-11-14 17:05
In the light that no question is too stupid to ask ...
After a 30 year absence, something got into me and I bought a clarinet to play once again. It hasn't been since high school when I last played, and it is amazing how quickly some things come back.
So my question (I have so many of them, but I'll keep things to one at the moment) involves the note B at the bottom of the upper register. Of all notes that I play, this one is the most difficult. I'm fairly sure that I'm getting all of my fingers down properly and that the pads are covering all of the holes.
Specifically, how much does the clarinet itself have to do with hitting this note so that it sounds acceptable? The clarinet I purchased is not one of the better models you'll see (I didn't know whether or not I would get serious with things, so I hedged my bet and got a used one in the $150 range), but sounds okay to an intermediate beginner.
The reason I ask this is that I knew when I purchased it that the mouthpiece was trash, so that was replaced soon after purchase. This made a substantial difference in my ability to play certain notes well, so I am wondering how much difference a more upper level instrument will mean.
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Cheers -
george
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-14 17:13
A B natural should be no more difficult to produce than any other note, providing the following:
1. Are you certain all pads are seating and closing correctly?
2. Are you certain you are not accidently opening another key at the same time?
3. Are all joint corks tight?
4. Any visible cracks in the clarinet/ tone holes/ etc...?
Even the most basic of student model clarinets, when properly adjusted, should give no trouble in producing this note.
I assume you are aware that long B natural will be the note with most resistance due to the "length" of the closed tube by covering all keys and pads...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-14 18:00
First things first. Welcome back George. There are many of us "30plus" year restarts, and there are no foolish questions. I'll let the expets give you the proper answers, but you've come to the right place.
Bob A
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-14 18:23
Check GBKs list first.
Play a B then have a friend push the very bottom pad down. Sometimes this one lifts a little and lets the air escape. Do check that all your fingers are covering the holes properly. Even a slight gap could affect the note.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: George L Smyth
Date: 2001-11-14 19:02
Thanks for the words so far.
As far as I can tell, all pads are good, there are no cracks, and everything is in good operating order. When playing the note, I am using both pinky fingers (as opposed to using just the single key with my right pinky, which though I realize is sometimes necessary, is quite difficult and awkward, and I do oftentimes end up moving a finger slightly off a hole), so I'm pretty sure that everything is pretty well covered.
> Check GBKs list first.
Sorry, but I don't know what this refers to. I will, however, have someone push down on the pads to make sure that they are making the proper contact. I can understand that if this is not the case then I am making things difficult on myself.
Cheers -
george
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-14 19:36
I think she meant to pay attention to GBKs suggestions where he posted you an answer to your question.
BTW, welcome from me also, although I'm presently doing the part of the BBs "villain."
All the above suggestions are good. Let me add just one comment:
I have thick fingers and have to be extremely careful as to my finger placement.
One might think this is good, because thick fingers should cover the holes better.
It's not, because thick fingers have to be set down more accurately so they are not constently opening keys next to the holes I'm trying to cover or keys I'm trying to press.
The funny part of it is that I don't find my Eb soprano any more difficult than my A or Bb sopranos, in that respect. Well...
What I can tell you is that even when I'm away from the clarinets as little as a few days, I have to, when I first pick then back up, work at finger placement, or I have the same problem you are having, among others.
Still, even though you don't think your clarinet has any leaks or poorly seating pads, take it to be checked. A proper, reputable technician will know better how to determine if your instrument has any minor leaks or is in good adjustment or not.
Especially since you bought it used.
Sometimes minute things can happen to them that way, and they will drive you nuts unless you can be certain. If you have it checked by a knowledgeable tech and it's not the instrument, then you can work on the rest of it (your fingers)without being assailed by doubts.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-14 19:37
I would advise going to a technician and having the pads looked over and the springs, etc. given a look. If everything seems to be in good shape, then part of the problem is in "crossing the break." This is a difficult thing for beginners and "rebeginners" to master and requires a lot of practice. But, before you frustrate yourself into a corner, have the instrument checked. It will be worth the time and money.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-11-14 20:22
Often, difficult response on the 'long' B is caused by maladjustment of the 'crow's foot' attached to one of the r.h. pinky keys, which is supposed to force the B and C pads to seal simultaneously. If this dinky little flexible metal part is bent, or is weak and flexes too much, or the cork on it is worn or torn, then the two pads will not seat at the same time and response of the clarion 'B' will be difficult or impossible. You really need a leak light to check this, but in lieu of that try sliding very thin cigarette papers under the two pads mentioned, and see if the two pads are closing exactly at the same time or not. If not, you can make a gentle temporary adjustment of the crow's foot by bending it with needle-nose pliers.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-11-14 20:48
How does the low E sound? Do you have any problem playing low E. If not then play the note and have someone close the register key and see what happens.
Or try blowing a long E and then slide into the register key and there goes B.
Welcome back. I'm 2 1/2 years back into the horn after 40 years off. It is well worth the journey.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-11-14 20:54
Even when the pads are good, there can be leaks due to the horn being out of adjustment. Ask a more experienced player to try the horn. If they also have difficulty, it's time for a trip to a repair tech.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2001-11-14 21:06
WELCOME BACK !!
No questions are too far out for this crowd, George. You're among friends.
ron b :}
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2001-11-14 21:49
Well . . .
All of the above might be true, but the fact is the long B is one of the worst notes on the instrument. The reason is the register key opening is in the wrong place. This is why pro bass clarinets have two register key openings.
Finger the long B while resting the instrument on your knee. Instead of using the register key reach around with your right thumb and depress the third trill key from the bottom (same one as an alternate B) you may find you get an excellent B (if you don't all the other suggestions above apply). This trill key is about where the register key should be for this note.
This problem will not be the same on all clarinets because of the differences in register hole placement, diamater, and key opening distance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-11-14 21:58
Hi George,
For a quick test to see if the pads are sealing, take the lower joint by itself and close all the tone holes with your right hand (using the right-hand pinky E/B key). Cover the bottom opening with your left hand, then try to suck air through the upper end of the joint. If everything is aligned properly and sealing tightly you should create a vacuum that continues for at least several seconds after you stop sucking. Next, with the joint still closed, try blowing into the upper end (sealing the end with your mouth). You should feel strong resistance. If the instrument fails the "suck" test, a pad is probably not sealing properly, possibly because of the crow's foot but also I have found the F#/C# key can be the culprit. If it passes the "suck" test but fails the "blow" test, then the problem may be a weak spring that is allowing a pad to open slightly in response to the back pressure created when all the tone holes are closed.
Another thought. Do you have the same problem with B when you use the right hand pinky fingering as you do when you use the left hand pinky fingering?
In the end, you're probably going to want to take the instrument to a repair shop (perhaps where you bought it?) where a repair tech should be able to diagnose and fix the problem fairly quickly. Most likely the problem is with the instrument, not you and, most likely, it will not be an expensive fix.
Best regards and welcome back,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-11-14 21:59
Right, very good advice and solutions. I use the mid-staff B as the test for horn "tightness" , if there is any problem, it'll show up there. My handy-dandy solution., if the E/B and F/C seem to be very close to closing in unison, I take the lower joint in hand, holding down the Left little finger E/B key, and with a small match, GENTLY heat first the lower pad cup, then the higher pad cup, let cool held closed then trial-play. Works for me nearly always. You may want a tech to do this, at least to show you how. Oh, yes, welcome back to cl'ing. Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: chuck
Date: 2001-11-15 01:00
Went through the same problem area recently--I'm also a returning clarinetist--and concur heartily with suggestion to have crowsfoot adjustment and pad seatings checked. Then, if it ain't the clarinet, it's you, and in my case it was getting the ring finger of my right hand to make consistent closure of the g-d fingering. Have another person apply pressure to the back of the finger. It may answer the question. Chuck
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: willie
Date: 2001-11-15 01:54
Welcome back from another clarinet "retread". Basicly ya gotta leak. Follow the advice above. Then if you can't locate the leak (some are hard to detect), take it to the shop. That "B" you refer to is almost always the first note to give up when a leak developes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2001-11-15 02:02
Generally, if everything is sealed enough to produce a good low E, the mid-staff B will be okay... but not always. One thing to do for a check of the crow's foot is to use the left pinky key to produce a third-space C, then keep all fingers where they are except also press down the B key with the right pinky. This should ensure that everything on the bottom end is closed as well as it can be. If you can tell a difference while playing a B with the left pinky C key either depressed or not, the crow's foot is out of adjustment. Check the reverse fingerings, too. Good luck, and welcome back!
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2001-11-15 06:06
My R-13 has always had a dull-sounding B, although the effect is not as noticable on the low E. I've taken the issue up with my repairman in the past, but it seems to be a characteristic of the horn. I also have a pretty fuzzy throat B-flat and dull low C#.
My old Selmer Centered-Tone had none of these problems to the same degree. Luck of the draw, I guess.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: A David Peacham
Date: 2001-11-15 10:58
I had this problem a few months back. I was pressing the C key with my right little finger (we don't have "pinkies" in England, the very word sounds faintly obscene!) and the B key with my left little finger.
Result: no sound.
Reason: my left little finger was also touching the C# key just ever so slightly, just enough to make it leak. My wife, a non-clarinettist, spotted it straight away when I asked her to watch me play.
I realise this possibility is covered by discussions above, but I thought I'd spell it out precisely since I suspect you may have exactly the same problem as me. Check your fingers, your pinkies even, before you blame the clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-15 11:55
sorry, David, but we do have pinkies in England!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Joris
Date: 2001-11-15 12:09
Garry,
there is another possible fingering for it. Bend the left hand slightly, so it opens the As/Gis key to work as a register hole.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-15 13:24
Low F and Low E pads closing at the 'back' of the pad and leaking at the 'front'. This is by far the most common out-of-adjustment problem for clarinets. It is standard even for most brand new ones.
The problem, for a variety of reasons, shows up worse using just the left hand low E than by using just the right hand low E. You certainly should not have to press two keys.
Try this test: Get a strip of audio or video tape or cellophane (outer of cigarette packet) about 3 mm (1/8") wide. Slip it under the back of one of these pads, close the key WITH LIGHT PRESSURE applied to the left hand E/B spatula, and then draw out the 'feeler'. There will probably be resistance, or 'drag'. Now do the same at the front of the pad, using the samy LIGHT key pressure. I would place bets that it slips out easily with no drag, indicate incomplete closure here. Check both pads.
Also, I am sure you will find that if you use the method advocated by Don Berger above it will actually PRODUCE this condition, evven though it may have corrected a worse state. (This is to do with the key hinging from the side and the front oof the pad travelling further than the back.)
This would be the most difficult area of a clarinet to get adjusted right and it is my belief that you need a better than average technician to do it. and yes, before I get jumped on, some owners may well be better than average technicians!!
Correction may involve taking slop out of pivots, CORRECT seating of pads, correcting key cup alignment, linkage adjustment, reducing friction in the lever-to-key (i.e. left hand to right hand) linkages, getting rid of any binding of pivots, even levelling of tone holes, ........
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: George L Smyth
Date: 2001-11-15 13:50
Thank you for all of the responses. Peter - no problem, I've been on the Internet since 1995 and a have thick skin, A David Peacham - as far as 'we don't have "pinkies" in England' goes, my son say that the difference between Brits and Americans is that Brits think that 100 miles is a long distance, whereas Americans think that 100 years is a long time. <g>
From all of the comments I've read, it appears that the consensus is that either there is a leak somewhere or I need to work more on my finger placement.
There appears to be a little space between the Crow's Foot and the bottom of one of the keys it is under. It looks like there is enough room to slip a piece of cardboard in this slot, so perhaps this is not correct. It does appear that the pad is covering the hole when this lower key is pressed, but I think that I am going to take the horn to a repair person this weekend to make sure that any adjustments to be made will be done properly.
Although it sounds like the possibility exists that the instrument may itself be somewhat at fault, I'm getting the idea that the fault may be more my own. Last night while practicing, it was clear to me that this problem shows itself almost exclusively when moving from lower register to upper. This tells me that I might be slightly missing coverage, probably with the right ring finger.
I guess a few bucks to the repairman and more than a few hours in practice might give me a chance to slay this dragon.
Cheers -
george
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob
Date: 2001-11-15 13:54
I too came back after a layoff and had a problem with "middle" C (left hand) sometimes producing a squeak. Finally discovered it was the arthritis in my middle left finger causing "tracking" problems. All the above advice sounds great.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-11-15 13:58
Excellent pro advice, Gordon NZ, makes me glad I said "Works nearly always". I also have found other reasons for malfunction, particularly when trying to restore a well-used oldie. Also Gary Van Cott did put his finger on the basic reason for a poor, "dull" long B, the register hole design character being prob. the worst compromise made on our horns. The improvement by use of a second register vent [on my bass, an alto and the Stubbins cls] is well worth the added complexity of the keywork, IMHO. In my limited experience, some of the older Selmers and some LeBlancs, with a exteriorly raised and interiorly shortened vent tube have achieved a satisfactory compromised design, again IMHO Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-15 15:57
Hi "unidentified" Bob. I am confused (Dave S... and Peter will confirm this). I have been counting up and I find I don't have a "middle" left hand finger, just a thumb and four fingers. Which one gets to be the "middle"??
Bob A
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-15 16:12
The one you use most while driving a motor vehicle in places like Miami, FL?
(Then you duck so somebody doesn't shoot you for it, the way things are here!)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: A David Peacham
Date: 2001-11-15 18:36
Yes, yes, very off-topic, never mind:
(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)
pinkie, pinky
noun [C]
AM, AUSTRALIAN AND SCOT ENG
the smallest finger of a person's hand
So the Scots might have pinkies, but the English don't!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Todd W.
Date: 2001-11-15 21:09
George L. Smyth & A David Peacham --
One of the aspects of this BB that makes it so appealing to me (in addition, of course, to the wonderful clarinet information) is the digressions into other areas, such as language differences.
I had heard the description of England and the United States as "two countries separated by a common language" (sometimes attributed to George Bernard Shaw), but had never heard the 100 miles/100 years comparison. I like it! Thanks for today's smile.
Todd W.
P.S. Here in the US we also have Pinky and the Brain, but that's TOO off-topic
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-15 21:43
Just looked up pinky myself, and I stand corrected. However, how come I'm English, have no Scottish relatives, but have had two little pinkies all my life? :-) I shall have to investigate. `.-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-15 21:50
We definitely have Pinky and Perky. (Or are they American too???)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Todd W.
Date: 2001-11-15 22:05
Emms--
I just looked up Pinky and Perky on the Internet. Now THAT'S bizarre! No we don't have them here yet (that I know of). We're still reeling from the onslaught of the Teletubbies.
All in fun,
Todd W.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
