 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-11-08 20:15
Those of us who don't know America find the concept somewhat bizarre. Is it music?
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-08 20:54
Most definitely not.
However, it is very often the only way to keep certain students enthused enough to continue playing their instruments. Go figure.
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Author: MsRoboto
Date: 2001-11-08 21:02
Well a marching band is a bunch of things.
First I would say they are used in two main ways:
1. Parades where typically the band tries to play music while marching down the street in straight rows. Sometimes accompanied by flag teams or baton twirlers. If the band is accomplished in this they might even try to do some interesting moves while marching and playing.
2. American football games. Typically in high school and college the bands do some kind of marching routine on the field while playing between the 1/2's of the game. This is usually more like precision marching where you are trying to do formations and other things that look interesting from the stands.
This is all done outside of course so to be heard most of the time playing loud is very important. The clarinet not being the loudest or most prevelant instrument is usually overwhelmed by the brass and saxaphones and drums.
Also, it is typical for a clarinetist to use a plastic instrument if at all possible because of course it can be very cold or hot and it can rain or snow and the show must go on.
So there we are out on the field with our most inferior instrument trying to play as loud as we can to be heard over the brass etc or even worse trying not to screw up our good instrument while marching and playing loudly.
Oh yeah in American music there were a bunch of guys that wrote "marches" - John Phillip Sousa for one. These are typically patriotic music and is used quite a bit while marching.
Does this help you?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-08 21:15
Having a high school marching band is a BIG factor in having voters pass school budgets...End of discussion...GBK
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Author: Marcia Nottle
Date: 2001-11-08 23:26
While it is true that John Phillip Sousa wrote many marches, his band did NOT march. Perhaps he had the right idea? I am Canadian and our school bands rarely march. I have played in community bands and marched with them but I do not find it a musically satisfying experience. It can be fun but that's about the only merit I can find in it.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 00:54
I should probably stay out of this, beacuse otherwise I would make two comments.
#1. I have read three postings from Larry Liberson and, where I come from, he would be classified as your typical, average idiot who, try as he may to be funny never quite seems to make it happen, but won't give up. Go figure.
#2. You'd have to have been in a marching band to really understand it, but marching bands teach students much more than music. They also teach them team-work, discipline and to take difficult obstacles in stride (no pun intended,) to accomplish an end and do it well.
School marching band members come from the school's other bands and orchestras and have the same basic music education as other students who do not participate in marching band.
In fact, they have a more accelerated learning rate due to the fact that while they are learning the marching music, they are often also learning the music for other school band projects, while the other students are only learning the particular music for the band in which they participate. And most students only participate in one band class and practice one set of music at a time.
I would venture to say that there are more "musicholics" and dedicated musicians in marching band than in any other school band(s.) These kids are so deeply into the music that they sacrifice all their time and work like dogs for the sake of it.
While many students in other school bands are in it because they were forced to take an art class and it may as well be music, most kids who participate in marching band do so in addition to their participation in one or more other school bands. Marching band is their one more way to be involved in music.
It's called total immersion.
I know many marching band members who are musically multi-talented enough to play seven or eight instruments well enough to play one in marching band, another in wind ensemble, another in concert band and another in jazz band, then sub on other instruments in those same bands and orchestras.
A son of mine is one such. His main instrument is the clarinet, but he also plays guitar, piano, bass, saxophone, and flute.
Marching band has helped him to develop the discipline, commitment, stamina and dedication to do about six to seven hours a day of music classes, band and orchestra practice plus attend regular high school classes, and partake in band activities and football games on some nights and weekends.
This is without counting that when the school band goes away to competitions, which is every weekend during marching season, they often start to work from 8:00 a.m. Saturday morning to return home at 3:00 a.m. on Sunday.
And I am not sure I understand where you find the subject bizarre, unless you come from a country that has no tradition of parades or military bands. Just curious, where do you live?
Anyway, a marching band has a lot more to do with music that people like Mr. Liberson would be willing to admit. Go figure!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-11-09 02:32
Peter wrote:
>
> I should probably stay out of this, beacuse otherwise I
> would make two comments.
>
> #1. I have read three postings from Larry Liberson and, where I
> come from, he would be classified as your typical, average
> idiot who, try as he may to be funny never quite seems to make
> it happen, but won't give up. Go figure.
Larry <b>is</b> quite funny. Perhaps it's you ...
> #2. You'd have to have been in a marching band to really
> understand it, but marching bands teach students much more than
> music. They also teach them team-work, discipline and to take
> difficult obstacles in stride (no pun intended,) to accomplish
> an end and do it well.
So does the military. Where I spent 8 enjoyable years.
> Anyway, a marching band has a lot more to do with music that people like Mr. > Liberson would be willing to admit. Go figure!
While marching band is a wonderful spectacle, I'd agree with Larry about the musical quality of it. But what the heck - if kids or adults like it, they can go perform. No one stops them, and if somehow they get some sort of musical experience out of it - who am I to day they didn't. I justy wish it wasn't a requirement of so many school music departments - let those who want to march, march, and those that don't - study music.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-09 02:42
Gee, Peter, thanks for the kind words....as always.
But my post here was not meant to be humorous -- simply an observation of what I see around where I reside, based on the experiences of my own students and that of my daughter.
Perhaps where you are it takes on more importance, and I can't speak to those experiences and observations.
What I have seen here is an over-emphasis on the marching aspect with the attention given to musical development and accomplishments sadly lacking. Some of the public school band programs participate in the competitive marching band 'season' here (I am in Michigan) where they learn music (and I use the terms 'learn' and 'music' liberally here) and simply repeat it for the entire season (this begins the prior spring, continues through the summer in their mandatory rehearsals, is even further enhanced during band camp, and culminates the first weekend in November usually).
Discipline, commitment, stamina and dedication can be developed from numerous activities. As long as you used your son as an example, let me compare my daughter and her activities, if you don't mind.
She started violin at a few months short of her fourth birthday -- her idea, not her parents. She still plays to this day (she will be 20 in February). She practiced practically every day from that beginning until she went to college little more than a year ago. Neither her mother or I had to ask or remind her to do so after about the age of 6. Often discipline comes from love as I can only assume it was in her case. But that dedication to her fiddle spread to whatever else she approached, be it academics, snowboarding or whatever.
Other kids I know have had similar experiences through athletics, academics and other extracurricular pursuits. Marching band doesn't have a lock on insuring one's success.
Ironically (and yes, against the wishes of Mom and Dad), she wanted to join the marching band after her freshman year in high school. For the music? No, hardly. For the comaraderie. She wanted to spend more time with her friends, which was quite understandable. Also, being a strong keyboard player, she played in the "pit" ensemble part of the band. And she loved it -- most of the time.
But did it reinforce--or even fundamentally teach--music? Not in the least. (and this marching band--for reasons I still don't understand--was ranked in the top ten in the state!)
In my discussions with my students (and my own kid!), not one -- NOT ONE! -- has ever confirmed that basic aspects of music performance (such as intonation, tone production and phrasing) were touched on regularly in the course of rehearsals. Playing together and keeping time seemed to be the extent of it. This is not music or making music.
My upbringing doesn't call that MUSIC education. Simply playing (or holding) an instrument does not make one a 'musician.'
Yes, Peter, I spent my high school years in band and orchestra and, of course, that included marching band. I also marched my first year in college, that being in the famed University of Michigan Marching Band under William D. Revelli. My fading memories of that contradict what I see and hear about today: we didn't bother going outside to march if what we did inside was not in tune, in rhythm, toanlly acceptable and MUSICALLY played. What was done musically was put first (and the band as a group of marchers was pretty damn great, BTW. Discipline personified.). Now, discussing the repertoire is another story....
My congratulations to your son's organization if they get this kind of musical training. If not, then perhaps we have a different concept of what music and music education is or should be. Enthusiasm, participation/involvement and dedication is very important, if not admirable. However, it does not necessarily mean that the experience is musical (and I will state that, perhaps, we have different ideas as to what music and being a musician is. I can't change the way I think of it and I certainly don't expect you to change, either.).
My daughter spent all four years of her high school career as concertmaster of her HS orchestra. She was also concertmaster of a local youth symphony. Even though she is not going to make a career of music, she still makes time to play in her campus orchestra (with whom she will play the Mendelssohn concerto in two weeks) and plays regularly with a chamber music ensemble. (And heck, as long as I'm extolling her virtues, you can see her photo as part of the cover story in the 11/12/01 Newsweek! ). I asked her what she got out of marching band after reading your post -- her answer? "I had a fun time." I then asked her if she got anything musical out if marching band. Well....if looks could kill! Then she just laughed.
I learned much, much more about the art (and discipline) of music-making through symphony band, orchestra, chamber music, lessons, and endless hours of practicing and listening than I ever did as part of a marching band (I'll certainly admit to some!). Frankly, it's very hard to hear one's self outside on the field--especially as a clarinetist!--when you're more worried about marching eights steps to five yards. If you can't hear, if you can't listen, you're not going to grow as a musician.
If I may add yet another comment to this already too lengthy response, I don't know of one of my colleagues who looks as his or her experience in marching band as the slightest aid in their musical education, let alone an integral part thereof.
And they ARE musicians. Great musicians.
In closing, I had the good fortune earlier this year to meet up with the gentleman who not only started me on the clarinet (going on 40 years now) and was my first private instructor, but was also my high school band director, now long retired. He had a wonderful career conducting top rated bands, conducting sessions at Interlochen and winning teacher-of-the-year awards, etc. He made a point of asking me what's happening in the schools where I live (which is also where he taught). I told him
He shook his head and quietly said, "Larry...that's not music education."
Marching band can be a fun thing, it can instill that discipline, etc., of which you speak, and it can help keep the marginal players involved (which I alluded to in my original post) longer than some might expect. But is it music? Not in my world.
And that, Peter, is what I use to figure.
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Author: Jessica
Date: 2001-11-09 02:44
I am currently in a high school marching band... my director's philosophy is that it's more entertainment than music... our motto (during marching season only, of course!) is "No hotdogs" (Translation: be visual and loud enough that they'd rather watch the half time show than go eat dinner)
BTW, I found Larry's comment quite funny :-)
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Author: Stephanie
Date: 2001-11-09 03:31
I marched for 2 years. The main thing we were taught was to just play loud and march right. Of course we would tune and all, but that was about it. Mostly, I enjoyed marching band because it gave me a chance to be part of something instead of sports (I'm not athletic at all) and because a lot of my friends were i it. Oh, I can't forget that I absolutely loved being on the field at half time performing for all those people. They just find marching more intersting than concert. you know, that was a cute saying Jessica!
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-11-09 04:03
I must say this....it's long, but please read it all.... thanks
I'm a freshman a music major, and while I do really enjoy the whole wind ensemble and orchestra scene, marching bands shouldnt be discredited in the least. I'm a member of the saxophone section of the University of Iowa Hawkeye Marching Band, and although at first I hated the idea of being required to march because I'm a music education major, I've now seen how much fun it is and I plan to do it through the remainder of my college career. We're probably the most visible student organization on campus, and its incredible to be such a big part of the Big Ten football scene (I LOVE football). I'll never forget marching into Kinnick Stadium for my first game, and playing pregame in front of the approximately 70,000 people there. It was incredible, and that same feeling is still there every game day. I just love it. Theres nothing like high-stepping into a stadium to the welcome of over 70,000 black and gold clad Hawkeye fans. The crowd loves us. Some of my best friends march along side me every day, and I'm confidant that my best memories of college will come from marching band. Words absolutely cannot express the amount of pride that I take in being a member of the HMB. Marching band is the reason I've become such a true Hawkeye, because of it I bleed black and gold.
As for the question of whether or not marching band is actually music... all I have to say is this. After the events on September 11th, all college football was cancelled that saturday - including the huge Iowa-Iowa State rivalry game that was scheduled to take place that day (it's been rescheduled for the saturday after Thanksgiving - go Hawks!). Games resumed the following weekend. Our band director wrote a new show for our next game, on September 29th against Penn State (it was homecoming). It consisted of God Bless America, a patriotic medley, and closed with God Bless the USA. When we got to to the point near the end of God Bless the USA where the words go:
"..and I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me, and I'll gladly stand up, next to you and defend her still today, 'cause there ain't no doubt I love this land, God bless the USA...."
the band was at a standstill, the line I was in facing away from the press box (we had the melody in that part also). We'd gotten an american flag that stretched from 40 yard line to 40 yard line, to the first hash mark, in front of the press box. It was unrolled at that point in the song. The entire crowd (all roughly 70,000 people) gave us an incredibly enthusiastic standing ovation. It was the most moving thing I've ever seen. The crowd went absolutely wild. I was in tears by the end of halftime; I wasnt the only one. There were few dry eyes in the house. (I have tears in my eyes right now just thinking about it). It was the most incredible thing I've ever been a part of, and I'll never forget it. Neither will anyone else who was in the band or in the crowd. It was absolutely beautiful.
I dont think I'll ever see another musical performance by any ensemble that has that much impact on that large of a crowd. Sure, most of the members of any marching band don't have an exceptional amout of ability, but put together at the right time and place, they can create something so beautiful and so moving that it will be forever etched in the minds of everyone who witnessed it. That performance, by a group accused by some of being "un-musical" will be remembered by every person who was at that game. I've performed in many concert bands and wind ensembles (I'm currently in the U of Iowa Symphony Band), but I'm almost positive I'll never remember anything from wind ensemble as much as I'll remember that single halftime show. It was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And it was by the group who many consider to be not talented or musical - the marching band.
I'm sorry, that was long, but it was something that needed to be said...thank you
~Ashley~
The University of Iowa Hawkeye Marching Band,
Saxes '01-'05
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-11-09 04:46
I agree with the dissapline and teamwork aspect of marching band and I've seen it work well in most bands that have good band directors and music programs. If the band director is less than good it can cause problems like lack of pride, lack of music skills and worst, a lot of kids dropping out of band. As for the concept of marching music being "crud", you probably haven't seen (or heard) some of the great stuff written in the last few years. I went to the local 5-A marching competition In Texas City last year and saw some fantastic performances by some really great bands. It was far better than the music we had to use when I was in school.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 04:54
Larry,
Then, your figuring measure is poor, indeed, because according to your description, music education in Michigan schools must be poorer than I would have thought.
While I agree that a "marching band" music education as a stand-alone can not compete with "concert band," "wind ensemble," "symphony orchestra," etc., the way it's done at our school is different than you describe in your area. There is emphasis placed on delivering a good music performance.
In fact, the "marching band" puts on some pretty good non-marching concerts and performances at school events in which they play some outstanding music.
Tomorrow night the "marching band" will perform Alfred Reed's "Russian Christmas Music" and Rimsky-Korsakov's "Russian Easter Overture" at a "marching band" fund raising dinner.
Imagine that! And from a marching band!
Neither of those two pieces is part of the "marching band's" "marching" repertoir, which at this time is "El Toro Caliente," "Brazil," "Ran Tan Tan," and "Malaga."
Tonight I attended a school jazz band practice session in which every single student member of the band was also a member of the marching band. And the jazz band director is also the guy who choreographs the marching band's competition marching.
That's part of my idea of a music education. Here, if you can't play, you're not in it! But then again, we have an oustanding band director.
I attended three military schools, all of which had more than one "marching band" at different levels of instruction. Every couple of weeks the bands were learning new repertoirs, and rarely played the same music twice in a row. One school had five marching bands, where, in the lowest level one, I started out beating a drum at six years old.
Only the top two bands marched in public, but all the others put on school shows all the time and it wasn't unusual for a higher-level band to borrow subs from one of the others.
By the time you hit the middle school, never mind the high school, you can bet your butt you could, both, play and march!!!
And with all due respect, as far as playing keyboard in the pit, you've got to be kidding! She may as well have been in a non-marching band, for all the "marching band" experience she soaked up in the pit! I'm sorry, but I don't really consider the pit a true "marching band experience," or a keyboard in the pit a marching band instrument.
In the 35 years since I played in a marching band, I still have not gotten used to a marching band having a "pit." I'm from the old school, and even though my son's school band also has a pit, I don't see anything you can't, or are not willing to carry as being a fair part of a marching band. A marching band is supposed to march. Everyone.
Aside from that, good for your daughter. She sounds very, very talented and I'm sure that as I, you recognize her interest in music throughout her growing years as a blessing, even when you may not exactly agreed with her joining the marching band.
Beats the hell out of a whole lot of other things they could have been doing, does it not?
By the way, we do agree in that marching band is not the only place to learn all those other positive attributes like discipline, commitment, stamina and dedication, etc.
Gee, Mark, we must be almost family. I retired at Fort Bragg, N.C., from Army Special Forces, after having served 22 years in the 82nd ABN DIV, the First Ranger Batalion, and the 20th Combat Engineer Brigade, and taken part in armed conflicts in three continents.
I too, had an enjoyable time, but perhaps it made me intolerant of "normal" human traits and dampened my sense of humor.
I'll have to re-read Larry's postings and see if they strike me any differently. Although I do have to admit that his posting in regards to the person asking for who used what set-up was quite apropo. (There you go, Larry!) I wouldn't have been so tolerant.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-11-09 05:36
Peter wrote:
> Gee, Mark, we must be almost family. I retired at Fort Bragg,
> N.C., from Army Special Forces, after having served 22 years in
> the 82nd ABN DIV, the First Ranger Batalion, and the 20th
> Combat Engineer Brigade, and taken part in armed conflicts in
> three continents.
Nah, I don't think so. Only took part in one armed conflict, and only had to march in boot camp. I helped the Marines do the ground-pounding.
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Author: Ashley
Date: 2001-11-09 06:00
.......and I suppose drum corps isn't "music" either? They perform (very well, i might add) symphonic pieces arranged for brass line, while staying exactly in step and putting on a spectacular drill. Where exactly is the line between what is music and what is not?
~Ashley~
HMB Saxes
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Author: Cathy
Date: 2001-11-09 06:02
Peter said...."That's part of my idea of a music education. Here, if you can't play, you're not in it!"
Peter, in my book that is a pretty narrow view of music education, excluding students for lack of playing ability. A true music educator should be more concerned with all of his/her students learning something about musicanship and gaining valuable experiences rather than having the best score at a competition. If they can't play very well, it is the teacher's responsibility to help them improve. Thats my two cents as a future band director ~Cathy
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Author: Joris
Date: 2001-11-09 07:57
If the marching band plays music too (like Russian Christmas music), that doesn't make the principle of marching any better. Apart from wether you like the concept trying to play music while marching, it is clear that the marching doesn't make the music any better. It could perhaps (not in my opinion) make the experience for the public better, but not the music.
I think it more has to do something with traditions. Germans always want to march too. It must have something to do with militarism and in case of the Americans an obsession with sports and the show around it.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-09 11:42
I never thought I would ever get into a discussion about marching band. And perhaps I may have stretched this into whether it is 'music' or is it 'musical.' Whether 'music' is really being taught, what 'music' education is (or should be).
There is a difference.
Quickly, to follow up to a couple of Peter's comments: Music education in MIchigan is neither poor nor is it exemplary. Most often, it's quality is a reflection of those doing the teaching (as in many other facets of school, life, etc...). There are some wonderfully talented educators here and their programs reflect this. And I'm not only talking of musical accomplishments -- organization, participation, enthusiasm, etc., has a lot to do with any successful program. After all, we have different ways of assessing success.
Mine is strictly musical. Admitttedly, that might be interpreted as a narrow view. I certainly have no disagreement with the other benefits of a marching (or non-marching) band program. The difference therefore (to me) is "what is happening musically?" What I hear as music and what I think is musical may differ....sorry. I think it is terrific that your experiences (and those of your son) are so positive. I also think it is wonderful that they are exposed to literature such as Rimsky-Korsakov, whether or not they do it while marching. But what a shame that they aren't able to live it as Rimsky-Korsakov intended it to be! I certainly don't mean to be elitist or snobbish, but if the music (and music education) is not put first and foremost it becomes another type of activity. That's the direction from which I come. The word 'marching' modifies the word 'band.' But 'band' is the subject here.
(And just to tease Peter slightly -- last week we did The Planets (Holst). Why is it that bands (marching or otherwise) always have to do 'Mars' or 'Jupiter?' I'm waiting for the time when they attempt 'Neptune.' And the week after next we'll be doing Rite of Spring. When a marching band can pull that off (and not just the loud parts!), I just might change my...uhhh...my tune. Oh yeah--I expect the opening to be played by the bassoon, in the correct key, etc... )
Oh, BTW, as far as the 'pit'....well, I don't make the rules, for sure! We didn't have them when I was participating in MB. I guess varied instrumentation must be part of the judging or something, as they all have pit groups. Oddly enough, their entire emphasis is that of performing the music (for this, I have no complaint!). And from my point of view, I'd rather have her do that than take her fiddle out in the rain (remember Woody Allen's cello in the marching band in "Take the Money and Run?")!
A short aside to Ashley -- actually, Ashley, you're exactly the kind of person who SHOULD be in the marching band. Whether you like it or not, or believe it to be appropriate or not, you are majoring in music education. You very well might be in a situation to teach and lead a marching band. Maybe you will be the one to do it great--with an emphasis on making the music great (after all, you're not majoring in marching education, are you?)
About your experiences after the September tragedy: that was an extraordinary situation, you must admit. As Mark said earlier, there is much pageantry associated with the marching band. Of course, in that situation, "God Bless America" and other patriotic tunes would impact anybody (yes, even me!). There were (and still are) many emotions and concerns with what happened. Was it the 'music?' Was it the pageantry? Was it a time to release? Of course, the tunes--and what they stood for--were important. Music has an extraordinary power. But might you've gotten a similar (if not less well attended) response if you did the same as a member of a woodwind quintet playing a synagogue or church service? Ahhh, but there is strength in numbers, eh?
One of my strongest memories of marching at Michigan (and in Michigan Stadium) was a nationally televised game. Not because it was necessarily televised, but because of how the band director(s) played it up: "You'll play for more people today than the XYZ Symphony will play for in their lifetime," etc. Even then, I felt that comparison to be sort of bogus. (I always wondered if they took into account all those who got up to visit the bathroom or those who got up to eat!).
Well, I have no idea how many zillions 'heard' us play (or saw us play, for that matter...or even cared!). But I've been playing upwards of 200 concerts a year for a long time now--and I'm not going to retire until I think I'm getting close to those numbers!
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-09 12:25
Ashley asks a great question in "Where exactly is the line between what is music and what is not?"
What we believe to be 'music' is subjective as anything can be. This discussion demonstrates that. We all have our likes and dislikes, our loves and hates. Our upbringing, background and experiences mold this part of our live as it does other facets of our being. Therefore, we will never reach much consensus here
I happen to think that the Messaien "Quartet for the End of Time" is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of music composed. Very moving and devotional, very challenging (to the performer as well as to the listener), and its' history/genesis is also very remarkable.
However, I'm sure there are a lot more who haven't the faintest idea what the piece is all about and might just as easily regard it as garbage. Different strokes for different folks. I guess that's what makes life interesting!
It can be all summed up by the late, great Buddy Rich. When a nurse preparing him for surgery asked if there was anything to which he was allergic, he told her, 'Only country music.'.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 12:51
Larry,
"Able to live it as Rimsky-Korsakov intended it to be?"
"If music education is not first and foremost...?"
Rite of Spring...?"
We are also not given to playing "alien" music as that planetary stuff you talked about (thank God for small favors!)
Otherwise, I guess I must not have said much to you, it's probably something to do with the type of English I communicate in.
BTW, there is, at least one marching band I know of that has a basoon in their pit and recently heard of another with a couple of oboes. I don't know how they get enough sound out of them, but since some are also using amplifiers on some of their pit instruments, I would imagine that's probably it.
I haven't seen or heard them play yet.
Anyway, this isn't going anywhere, but it has been fun discussing it with you.
Cathy,
There are several other bands and band education courses a student can be involved in for what you are talking about and no students are excluded.
But marching band, as such, is a competitive school event, and just as the football team does not accept those who can't play, neither should the marching band, if it wants to be musically competitive, as oppposed to the participants just being part of a herd.
That thinking is what gives marching bands a bad name and makes people like Larry think they haven't much to do with music. I mean, allowing poor players in public with what could be a really good, well rounded, musically inclined band.
Even Larry said that at the university in Michigan "...we didn't bother going outside to march if what we did inside was not in tune, in rhythm, toanlly acceptable and MUSICALLY played."
Enjoy.
Peter
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 12:54
Hot dog, Larry, I just read your last post: At last we agree!
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Author: jenna
Date: 2001-11-09 16:05
I'm reading all of this, and I'm feeling rather torn.. I'm a senior in HS now, and my marching championships are tomorrow in Atlantic City. I am in no way a big fan of marching band.. at this point I'm just waiting to get it all over with. Then again, I do have some points to make..
As far as HS marching band, we were at one point not long ago one of the best on the EMBA circuit. We switched, and now we hold our own in USSBA, often finding the middle ground. Our marching band is completely separate from all other musical organizations in the school. For kids who can't take a music class due to their schedules (concert band and orchestra are the same period, then the next period is chorus and jazz ensemble) or don't feel they get enough, marching band offers another outlet. I was only able to take concert band this year, and that leaves me only heavily practicing bass. Marching band has allowed me to really keep up with my soprano playing, though. Granted, we play the same music from august - december, but we're always trying to perfect it. We have "in" days after school, where rather than marching outside, we stay inside on the stage or in the band room just working on music - dynamics, articulations, blending among sections. Overblowing and playing merely to be loud is NEVER condoned. We play all jazz-like pieces and we pay attention to the music for how it is written. If the woodwinds have a subito piano, we will play a subito piano, regardless of the fact that it's probably not very loud (the first clarinet part is actually rather audible from the stands because it is high and cuts through a lot of the lower harmonies) compared to the rest of the bands. When we warmup we do things like long tones, scales in whole/half/quarter/eighth/sixteenth notes. Then we tune, then we play parts of our music. We pay careful attention to our music, as well as our marching. And for a lot of people, marching band is a type of family situation they only get during band season. You fight and argue and complain, but you make some of your closest friends there. I'm greatful to MB for introducing me to some fantastic people that I may not have met otherwise.
I've also marched for a community military band. We play and march songs like Stars and Stripes, Washington Post, Them Basses, Invercargill, Joyce's 13th Reg., etc, etc.. we have march books containing at least 500 pieces per part. We practice these (even though many people have been playing them since they joined the ban 2, 6, 10, 30 years ago) fairly often.. still checking for dynamics and articulations. Then we march them. Not drill, just straight marching. I feel this experience furthered my abilities TREMENDOUSLY. I was an ok clarinetist before joining this band.. but nothing to write home to mother about. When i joined this band, I really expanded as a player because i was playing so many different things. Not only was I learning to play all kinds of marches, but also overtures, difficult concert band arrangements.. and I was sightreading a lot at the same time. I feel so much more confident about my playing now, then ever before. I think it did me good to go to a parade expecting to play 2nd or 3rd not long after I joined, have someone hand me a 1st/solo clarinet march book and say "Bill couldn't be here and Marge is sick." It was scary, but it made me use my head.
Ok.. so I rambled for a while, but I feel marching band can have merit given the right circumstances. Maybe all marching bands don't focus on the same things so much.. but many do put emphasis on not only marching, but music, loyalty, friendship, and performance overall... I don't think, for as much as I complain about it, I would trade my marching band experiences for anything. They've improved my playing, my personality, my discipline, and stamina.
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Author: Lindsey Ondrey
Date: 2001-11-09 19:03
"In my discussions with my students (and my own kid!), not one -- NOT ONE! -- has ever confirmed that basic aspects of music performance (such as intonation, tone production and phrasing) were touched on regularly in the course of rehearsals. Playing together and keeping time seemed to be the extent of it. This is not music or making music. "
That's definately not the right band to be in, then. At the high school I graduated from 2 years ago, that was never condoned. We spent our first week of marching band camp doing nothing but the music! When it came time for rehersals during the school day (It was an included part of the course, and the class period was split during the week with the choir so members could be in both if they wished--it was a fairly small school), often we would work solely on the music, intonation, timing, phrasing, etc. instead of going out to the field to march it. We spent a single week learning marching and drilling it before school began, then only marched it again before major performances/competitions.
As for other students I know, myself included, I felt that I got a LOT out of marching band. Yes, the camraderie was a lot of it. I also spent time jamming with the drummers (my friend Trevor, especially, who aspired to be a member of the Illini Drum Corps), learning rhythms, honing my listening ear while transcribing music from tapes, practicing etudes between pieces with the help of my fellow clarinet players, etc. I learned more about articulation and tonality during our sectionals during marching band than I ever had the chance to ask about during concert season just because of time restraints with our director because our school district that had stretched him so thin.
My first disappointment with coming to a small college to major in Music Ed was that there is no marching band at our school because of the connection I had by just spending time discussing music in general during down moments with other members. And before you jump to any conclusions that I might not be a decent player or a "real" musician, I have also been in concert band, orchestra pit for a musical, German band, District V Honor band for Illinois, All-Area Honor Band, Concordia University Band, clarinet choir, Concordia Wind Symphony (which is internationally known for its recordings), and done solo work. I currently am an instrumental/choral music ed major and a member of Air Force ROTC (which uses many of my marching skills that I learned) and value playing highly. I hope to some day get a slot as a Conductor for an Air Force band. While I don't necessarily endorse enforced Marching band as a part of the group for the year as a whole instead of an outside activity, I do encourage anyone who wants to have fun and learn more about music to join one.
It was one of the best experiences of my life and I look forward to somehow being involved with one again some day.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-09 19:08
Peter mentioned (to me, I assume?) "I guess I must not have said much to you, it's probably something to do with the type of English I communicate in."
No, I don't think that's it. Despite Webster' attempt to the contrary, I believe it is difficult, if not impossible, to define the word 'music.' Again, we each have our own ideas as to what music is and what it should be. Sort of like which set up is best! We all think we know -- just hard to convince others!
Sort of like trying to understand Bill Clinton's interpretation of 'is.'
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-09 21:10
In support for Beejay, the original writer of this thread, coming from the u.k, we do not have marching bands, and appologies for the word used, but it does sound a little bizarre to us. Can't imagine doing this here - we'd get drenched in the rain, or our music would get blown away!!! On a similar theme, the local school has just formed a cheerleading club, which again, I'm afraid, is looked on by parents as 'rather strange'. Each to their own?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-09 22:44
Jenna and Lindsey,
Thank you for your input. I always knew there were other schools out there that have better musical education attached to marching band.
Thanks again, as well to Ashley and Willy.
Apparently there are some who still don't consider a marching band's ability to do an excellent job with the classics part of a good music education as it relates to a marching band, and so on. No way to help that.
I'm glad you were able to detail your worthy experiences in the "musical" part of a marching band that cares what they sound like, not those that have given marching bands a musically sour name, apparently, like the ones described as existing in Michigan.
Emms and Beejay:
I get it, yeah, you'd get drenched all right, but remember that the Scotts had some facsimile of marching bands in the way of their "drum and bagpipe" corps, and the British (?) in their "drum and fife" corps, which facsimiles of marching bands accompanied the British army everywhere they went, for centuries, in centuries past.
The thing is that our modern "school marching bands" are more in the line of "drill teams." They don't just march, they are actually choreographed and put on what could be construed as a "dancing band show," as it were.
The better school marching bands, though, do have excellent music education programs which include classical, jazz, country, international, patriotic and pops.
I recently heard a band that did a program called "The Deliverance of Israel," or some such, in which they played well chosen Jewish traditional music while their dancers (girls, and sometimes boys, trained for the purpose,) portrayed the "history" of the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt in a ballet type performance.
While it was not the Bolshoi Ballet, they did a credible job and the band was absolutely great!! They even had a "Shofar" horn they played in the opening of the show, and it was very credibly played to excellent effect.
I don't know if you have actually seen some of these "shows," but sometime in the next month I will have a video tape of some of these competitions and if you stay in touch through my personal e-mail, I'll try to copy one and send it to you.
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Author: Jeanne
Date: 2001-11-10 05:54
In our marching season, I have seen the skill, intonation, counting ability, and overall musicianship increase dramatically over a short period of time. What started out as a group of poor musicians who talked more than anything else has become a dedicated group of fine musicians, most of which are many times better than they were at the beginning of the year. Though marching band is sometimes seen as a "sport" with no musical aspect, I do not see it that way at all. There is challenging and beautiful music played by marching bands; our show this year has a beautiful ballad and a 8 measure clarinet feature. Though clarinets are not the most popular or well known marching instruments, they can hold their own. I hope that conclusions about lack of musicianship in marching bandsare not drawn without ever playing in a marching band, because I have found it a wonderful and challenging experience
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-11 01:01
Wanted to share with you that I just returned from a major marching band competition and two of the bands I got to see there were true marching bands.
They had no pits or any pit instruments whatsoever. One marched what looked to be pretty close to a 42-inch bass drum and even the drum majors were on the field and marching with the bands, using real marching band batons!!
Of course, they were choreographed, but that's aceptable. They were also musically good, if not quite perfect.
While there, I made a point of speaking with a random sampling of some of the band directors.
Apparently, the better bands have a much more stringent music program than the lesser quality ones. They have better music theory instruction and practice the musical aspect much more, including intonation, etc..
(FYI: The one at our school actually has individual section coaches for brass, woodwinds, percussion, auxiliary [dancing complement,] and marching.)
The better bands also have regular music and marching practice immediately preceding any important competitions. They also purchase their music professionally and specifically arranged for the size of the band and the instruments they plan to field, at quite a surprisingly high cost. (Our school does this as well.)
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-11 01:21
Wanted to share with you that I just returned from a major marching band competition and two of the bands I got to see there were true marching bands.
They had no pits or any pit instruments whatsoever. One marched what looked to be pretty close to a 42-inch bass drum and even the drum majors were on the field and marching with the bands, using real marching band batons!!
Of course, the marching was choreographed, but that's always been done in field marching (as opposed to parade marching.) They were also musically good, if not quite perfect.
While there, I made a point of speaking with a random sampling of some of the band directors.
Apparently, the better bands have a much more stringent music program than the lesser quality ones. They have better music theory instruction and practice the musical aspect much more, including intonation, etc..
(FYI: The one at our school actually has individual section coaches for brass, woodwinds, percussion, auxiliary [dancing complement,] and marching.)
The better bands also have regular music and marching practice immediately preceding any important competitions.
They also purchase their music professionally and specifically arranged for the size of the band and the number of each type of instrument they plan to field, at quite a surprisingly high cost. (Our school does this as well.)
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Author: amy
Date: 2001-11-11 01:42
In response to the original question, "is it music?" i would have to say yes, it certainly is. I have been in a high school marching band for two years, and i have been amazed at how many times people have told me, my director, and my fellow band members how much they have been moved by our music. As some people know, the material for a high school marching band show is chosen long before the school year begins. For this past marching season (2001) a patriotic show was chosen for my band, which included tributes to the army, navy and air force and arrangements of such songs as Yankee Doodle, Grand old flag, Eternal Father, and Sousa's Stars and Stripes. After the events of 9/11, people became so enthusiastic over our show. Some were even brought to tears - especially during Eternal Father. And people were moved every time we played the national anthem. I feel that we couldn't have chosen a better show for the circumstances. Just playing the songs made me feel good, like i was helping people through tough times (even though i am one of the aforementioned clarinet players who cannot be heard on the field anyways.) After this marching season i learned just how much of an influence music can have on people's emotions.
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Author: Tilly
Date: 2001-11-11 05:34
I've certainly had my fair share of dealings with marching bands.
I was in the Opening Ceremony for the 2000 Sydney Olympics, I was in the opening ceremony for the 2001 Beijing World University Games and My school band also marches.
(Which is strange as i am in Australia and not many bands march.)
And one thing all these marching bands did for me even if they did nothing else, is that they helped me become a whole lot better at memorising music
Plus it gave me the chance to perform in front of 110 000 people. Not a bad audience.
GO THE MARCHING BAND.
Tilly
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2001-11-12 06:41
After years of playing in band including marching band, I am playing in a newly-formed community orchestra. We have no problem finding wind players but great difficulty recruiting string players. I've asked some string players I know who now play folk music and the response is always that they did not have any fun in orchestra when they were in school. It seems to me that the fun/social element in marching band may give the wind players a more positive outlook later in life about continuing to play.
The other cool thing about marching/pep band is the opportunity to play for complete strangers and get feedback from them. My college band played once at an NAACP basketball tournament. We did not have a music major program and it was obvious to us that some of the other bands at the tournament were technically better than we were. As we wandered around the basketball arena with our band outfits on, people kept coming up to tell us that they liked our band the best. We were astonished and asked why. The answer was that we looked like we were having the most fun. Whenever I play in public now, I try to remember that lesson and to convey as much enthusiasm and energy as possible. Had I only ever played for the people who came specifically to see a symphonic band concert, I never would have had that experience.
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The Clarinet Pages
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