 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-01 16:30
I just got a Line6 Pod 2.0, a DSP guitar multi-effects processor, and have been having some kinda fun running my clarinet sound through it. A pickup glued into a mouthpiece feeds this.
There are plenty of issues involved in running wind instrument sound through a device that was designed for plucked string instruments. Such as: I haven't figured out how to turn off the "sustain" function in the Pod so that I can control volume level. There are some really cool things I can do, though. The main thing is to play with lots of different sounds and see where it leads.
The leaders of the two klezmer/wedding bands I play in have polar responses: one hates it, the other wants even more distortion. Then there are our clients - I have not used this setup enough yet to get any meaningful feedback from them, but apparently haven't offended them either.
My question is - has anybody else tried this sort of thing? What equipment do you use? Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Ralph Katz
Ann Arbor, MI
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Author: sarah
Date: 2001-11-01 16:38
i did a litte experimantation with a mike and a small guitar amp. the amp came with some settings. one of the most interesting has is very distorted and very sustained. mine is one of those mini danelectro amps and a cheap mike. i dont actually use it for anything though. just for fun once and a while.
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-11-01 21:13
I mainly used effects when playing fusion jazz.
my setup was :
Buffet RC Bb
Yamaha 622 bass clarinet
SD - system mics for Bb and Bass Clarinets (used also by Marcus Miller)
Mackie mixer (for the phantom power needed for the condensor mics).
a Digitech digital effect rack of my guitarist ( don't remember the model.. it was a 19 inch rack).
JBL PA systems with the essential returns which you need for improvising.
The most used effects were : pitch shift (enabling to play for example 5th chords), delay ( you get a really fun echo effect.. a bit like trumpet players use) and reverb to get a carnegie hall sound.
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Author: Jason M
Date: 2001-11-02 08:59
I have used delay effects on almost all instruments I have played (especially bass) and it can create increadibly ambient sounds, sometimes haunting. Not in solos though, it sounds quite 'eighties', unless you are into that sort of thing. I put the clarinet through it to have a try (via a mike), it sound pretty cool in some instances, especialy when playing slowly.
J
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-02 16:22
The pickup goes to the Pod and then into a Mackie mixer, or alternatively run the pickup to the mixer and then put the Pod in an effects loop, with similar results. The latter setup allows the mandolin player I work with to have fun with the Pod, too.
I have used chorus, delay, overdrive, reverb, and octaves. The lower octaves cut out for pitches above the staff, probably because the overtone series up there changes and whatever algorithm they use to determine pitch gives up.
The Pod can be tweaked via midi, and I am just starting to get into that. There are plenty of other effects units available. I took my clarinet and pickup into the effects room at a local guitar shop. Every minute there was somebody else peeking in the window, until finally the owner came down to see what those wierd sounds were coming from. The Pod seemed to be a good unit to start with, although it cost more than my initial budget. On the other hand, there have been plenty of features to play with.
SD products seem to have an good reputation from what I read. My pickup is a Barcus-Berry, glued into a mouthpiece. I don't know anybody else with one of these, and it only works because an electronics wizard friend made it work, and because my key click noise is kept to a minimum. The pickup is nonetheless great to have, because there is never any feedback and becuase there is no problem with wind noise in outdoor situations. I used a good mouthpiece for this little experiment, which made it (several years ago) a $250 risk. Lucky me. The B-B has its own pre-amp that runs on a 9-volt battery, so I don't need phantom power from the mixer.
I take A, B flat, and C instruments to jobs, but have only used the electronics with my wedding clarinet, a 10-year-old Brannonized R13 B flat.
Thanks for the comments so far! I hope there are more people out there who have experimented with electronics.
Has anybody done anything with pitch-to-midi?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-11-02 16:57
Good ideas. I've only used the standard high-dollar instrument mikes through systems~sometimes through a guitar amp with a little "presence" and reverb, then through a system.
But, the orchestra I play with in Israel insists on individually mikes on each instrument for recording purposes. They also use this set-up to "balance" out the sound at concerts with soloists and choir. Clicking noises can be a problem with that system.
Never tried the pickup in the mouthpiece, but have seen one that attaches to the barrel of the clarinet.
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Author: Joris
Date: 2001-11-02 20:44
I have never used it for playing music, but the measurement setup for doing scientific research on clarinets in Le Mans has a mike build into the mouthpiece and one in the room. About the only thing the two signals have in common is the base frequency. Since the sound in the mouthpiece reaches 180dB you need to have a sturdy mike to handle it though (and a small one that can be fitted into a little hole drilled into the mp).
I don't know what the mp-signal accually sounds like, since I only feed it through an oscilloscope and a spectrum analyzer.
Joris
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-11-02 21:13
There are two different types of mikes commonly used for "electronic" clarinets - the Barcus-Berry transducer/barrel assembly, and the AMT mikes. You may want to contact F. Gerald Errante if you're looking to add effects to a clarinet. Email me for his address. gerry's been working in experimental/electronically assited music for clarinets for literally decades.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-05 03:33
They actually sell a pick-up that clips onto the bell lip (like a clothes pin type set-up, but more presentable.
I've had one for years, perhaps used it three times with an amp. More often than not, I've used it plugged into a tuner.
In that reapect it is excellent for trying out new instrumenets, moutpieces, etc.
Clarinet electronic amplification is feasible, necessary, at times, but generally detrimental to purity of tone.
Not that I have achieved that anyway!
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-05 16:53
There are a number of different styles of microphones: 1) under the reed, 2) permanently mounted to mouthpiece or barrel, 3) mike shock mounts to bell, 4) mike clips to bell, 5) boom with two mikes clips to bell. Not sure if they still make type 1. 1, 2, and 4 may have key-click issues. 2-4 have similar volume issues: notes that use a lot of fingers down are much louder than notes with few fingers down. 5 solves this by putting a boom mike over the hands and mixing the directed sound from the bell with the diffuse sound coming out the tone holes. (Is Eddie Daniels a spokesman for one of these?) Pick your strengths and weaknesses, then count your money. Some of these systems are over $500.
If you were at the ICA in Columbus Ohio in 1998, you might have seen Buddy DeFranco using what the sound man called "a funky, old lavalier mike" clipped to his lapel. It actually sounded pretty good, except for the full notes dropping out. (At one point there was a pause while he fished the mike out of his jacket after stepping on the cord.)
I really like the freedom my type 2 mike gives me, but there are problems with full B and low E really honking. One big advantage, though, is that this setup is really resistant to feedback and wind noise. When these are not issues, I have an SM58 on a holder hooked to my music stand that I point up off the edge of my bell, picking up sound from both areas, and this works reasonably well.
My electronics wizard friend tells me that the mouthpiece pickup I have is a high-bias type mike. It came with its own pre-amp that runs on a 9-volt battery. One of the better local repair shops drilled a hole in a sacrificial mouthpiece for me and epoxied the microphone in per the manufacturer's instructions. It had a horrible hum, until the wizard re-engineered things. The manufacturer was no help here, and wanted to know why I didn't have them install it, even though none of their literature mentioned this service. They also wanted to sell me their newer model, but I was not inclined to throw good money after bad. I also had serious key-click problems, until my clarinet was re-brannonized.
Uh, per my previous comments, purity of sound is not necessarily the issue - the effects processor's job is to generate controlled distortion. When not running the effects processor, though, I am pretty satisfied with what I hear with either setup. I have heard some older type 1 mikes that mount in the barrel - they seem to drop out all the highs and leave a dull sound. The standard should be James Galway's wonderful pickup that mounts in his head joint - we should be able to get the same level of accuracy in a clarinet pickup.
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Author: Jason M
Date: 2001-11-05 21:19
Have a look at http://www.courtneypine.com and go to the technical section. This lists all of his equipment including his mikes and effects. He is a truly inspired musician if you don't know of him. I have several of his albums which they recorded straight to digital, as far as I know, and into Pro Tools.
Hope this helps some
J
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-06 12:37
Mr. Pine lists all of his studio equipment at that site, and it is pretty impressive. Says he uses "Neuman M149 *2" microphone for all his horns. Is this still available? Full Compass Audio's website shows the Neuman M147 - list price with suspension and windscreen is $2220. Google comes up with any number of studios that list Neuman M149's in their arsenals.
I am more interested right now in effects for live performances, but I have put Courtney Pine on my CD aquisition list.
Thanks!
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Author: Jason M
Date: 2001-11-06 13:03
Ralph, I it is a valve mic, well the NEUMANN M149 is, not sure about the NEUMANN M149 *2, I will try find out for you
J
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Author: Jason M
Date: 2001-11-06 13:10
Ralph go to http://www.neumann.com/infopool/mics/welcome.php
they have all their mics listed there. The list on Courtney's page shows mostly studio gear which the M149 would be.
J
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-06 16:40
Jason - OK - what you call "valve" we call "vacuum tube" on this side of the pond - understood. I will look at the Neuman site, although I would not consider buying one.
Like I said, I do this with my 10-year old wedding clarinet, which is a brannonized not so extra-special R-13 picked off the shelf. Would it be good to haul a $2K mike around to gigs? These things get bumped around. Would you spend more on a mike than your clarinet? Not to make fun - many people will always go with the best quality and that is just fine. (aside: One time a mom gave me back my A clarinet at a gig after her toddler plucked it off its stand while I was busy playing. This was a lesson - now I keep spare instruments behind me.)
I am more interested in the effects than the detection methodology. Maybe we could start another thread for microphones.
Thanks.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-07 14:48
Neumann's site says that the M147 is a newer version of the M149. They are both high impedence studio microphones that feed a vacuum tube (valve) circuit, which allows them to feed extremely long cables. Don't know what the *2 indicates - it may have been an intermediate model. They make versions for US and European AC (mains) voltages.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2001-11-30 20:07
The M147 is about $2200 list, the M149 is $1250. Full Compass Audio has some demo M149 units for $650.
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