 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Katherine
Date: 2001-10-27 18:41
Hi everyone, i've got a question about intonation. I saw on a response to an earlier thread that I'm not the only one having problems playing sharp on my vintage. I'm playing on an R-13 vintage with a clark fobes mouthpiece. I love how it sounds, but it seems that on my right hand notes i'm playing very sharp and i can't seem to bring it down. do other people who have vintages have this problem? does anyone have any suggestions on how to get the pitch down in these notes? i'm desperate!
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-10-27 20:10
I noticed you're at potsdam...thats where I'm from.
Anyway---what do you mean by your right hand notes? which notes are you talking about?
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-10-27 21:36
Obviously you're using standard fingerings, what are the specific notes? There's alternate fingerings for amost every note, if there isn't you might have to lip down to get the pitch lowered a bit.
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Author: Katherine
Date: 2001-10-27 22:29
the specific notes are b/f# a/e g/d and f/c (though mostly c)
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Author: Katherine
Date: 2001-10-27 22:33
and i've been liping the notes down, and it will get them about 10- 15 cents lower but some are still sharp still, ahhhh
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Author: James
Date: 2001-10-28 01:10
I recomend you try a few things. First try pulling out in the middle, and i dont mean just a hair thread, a significant amount, most clarinetist forget that clarinets should be pulled out in the middle a little bit just like at the barrel. Also maybe check your toung position, you might have it just a bit low.
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Author: Alyson
Date: 2001-10-28 10:52
I think Vandoren makes a mouthpiece to flatten the pitch. I'm not sure but I remember hearing about it recently from a friend. It may be the B45 13. If you speak to a knowledgable salesperson I'm sure they will know the right one.
Good luck!
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-10-28 15:00
OK, what you're describing are 12ths using conventional fingerings applying the octave key. Without delving into the physics of the instrument, cause and affect factors, all horns regardless of barrel size and how tuned has inconsistencies, experience pitch variation and un-evenness throughout the 3 1/2 octave range. They’re typically sharp from low c natural down to low e natural and mid-range, clarion d natural up to b natural. There are almost endless "tonal possibilities" one can experiment with, I’d suggest picking up a copy of Tom Ridenour’s and Allen Sigel’s method/alternate fingering books if you really want to get into it. You seem to be an intermediate to advanced player and already practice good fundamentals of breath support and embouchure. Here are MY humble alternate fingerings and adjustment tactics...you can build on these if you choose.
The alternate fingerings below are the most common approach (or venting) and applicable in any musical setting. They provide good response and resonance, will get the pitch down and still maintain tonal integrity. There are other combinations of lower left and right cluster keys you can sample but I think you'll find these the most practical; others will produce variations of the same pitch but timbre is dull, muffled and stuffy and not advisable especially playing exposed or slow lyrical passages. If these are still not low enough, you’ll need to lip down.
Get in front of a tuner before trying these and be fully warmed up. Assuming you’re on a standard 66mm barrel, your pads are “seeded” properly, free of leaks and horn in good working condition, you can unscrew the bell to the top edge of the lower joint tenon cork. Note: pulling out here will only flatten pitch in the low end and break notes (E/B, F/C, F#/C#).
The chalumeau g natural, clarion d natural, and chalumeau f natural are toughies, you'll have to lip down or if pitch is still sharp consider making an equipment change to a longer 67mm barrel.
B natural/F# and A natural/E natural: standard fingering add left or right F/C key. Drops pitch about a nickel or add left or right E/B key. Drops pitch a dime but don’t speak well. On B natural/F# add right ring finger, drops pitch 20 cents but sounds horrible. There are only 2 fingerings I know of for middle C. The standard full break C and the standard side C (which is # to begin with) and then closing tone holes with all spare fingers adding left or right E/B key.
You can play the “pulling out” game at the middle and even mouthpiece joints too. In front of the tuner, starting pulling out at the middle joint (not too much) inching a little at a time. If you’re in tune with your barrel in "all the way" you might consider trying a 67mm barrel and pull out. If you’re pulled out "slightly" with you’re present barrel try “splitting the difference” between the upper and middle joints. That can also improve evenness aid bring the pitch down. Cheers!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-10-28 19:15
Katherine -
Let's go at it methodically.
Try a friend's clarinet -- preferably a Vintage, but any good instrument will do. Is there the same problem? If so, it's you or the mouthpiece, or both.
Did you have this problem before you got your Fobes mouthpiece? Try your old one. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Fobes, but you need to know. Since the register vent is differently placed on the Vintage than on the R-13, Clark may be able to fiddle with his mouthpiece to improve the intonation. Also, Clark makes barrels, which are a considerable improvement over what came with your Vintage and can often improve intonation. Guy Chadash can also custom-fit a barrel to your Vintage. A better barrel is probably the best solution, as well as the least expensive.
Once you've found out whether your particular instrument is out of tune, take an electronic tuner and find out exactly which notes are sharp, and whether the sharpness is the same in the chalumeau and clarion registers. If the sharpness is consistent (by the same amount from note to note), and the registers are out by the same amount, you can help things by pulling out the center joint a millimeter or two. You should get tuning rings to fill in the gap, or, as Steve Hartmann suggested recently, have a cork shim glued on to the end of the upper joint center tenon.
If the 12ths are out by different amounts, you will need some expert undercutting of the lower joint tone holes and probably a special register tube to bring the registers together.
If the problem is in the instrument, and it's still under warranty, you should get in touch with Francois Kloc, who has worked wonders with Buffets that have problems. Even if it's out of warranty, you should take it to him and at least get it diagnosed.
If you get no satisfaction from Buffet, the Brannens are able to fix a lot of intonation problems. They're excellent players and will let you know if your instrument is fixable.
Sadly, some instruments (including Buffets) are too far out of tune to be fixed. As David Hattner said recently http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=52277&t=52179 , and as I said too http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=41632&t=41584 , Intonation has to be the first thing you check when buying an instrument. If yours can't be brought in tune, you have to bite the bullet and think about trading.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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