 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-16 22:07
With apologies to professor Fukuyama, I sometimes wonder if we have exhausted our subject. Or is it that we are going through a particularly dry period? How many more questions and answers will we have to read, I wonder, about embouchure, and its dozens of variant spellings? How many more discussions about the relative merits or this or that mouthpiece when everything you need to know is in the archives already? How many more discussions about rare items on e-bay when those of us outside the United States have no access to it? Can't we have some new ideas? The role of the clarinet, if any in Chinese opera? Balkan music? Great clarinetists you have known? Acker Bilk? Personally, I'm sorry the Klezmer fans went off to their own corner. We need their musical insights here.
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Author: John Gould
Date: 2001-10-16 22:24
Perhaps part of the problem lies with the esoteric nature of our instrument. It's like going to a sandpaper convention each year and the most important new thing is that 3M now has a silicon carbide with a new abrasive that is biodegradable (or some such thing). Yee-haw. Just not a huge range of stuff to talk about. So, exhausting the subject could be due to these factors. However, it could just as easily be the fact that the finer threads sometimes seen on this site don't interest as many people, and so they die an early death. I happen to make it my business to find out as much as I can about the clarinet because I love to play and it's worth it to me to wade through familiar territory if it means turning up the occasional gem . As far as I know, this is the most comprehensive, best-run site on the clarinet anywhere, so new directions would be seen here first, and since so many folks who play clarinet are smart (but you knew that!), there shouldn't be a problem coming up with new things. An example: Didja know that if you play clarinet for some wolves at the zoo that they will howl and usually dig it? (Get permission from the zoo director first). There. A new idea.
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Author: Sara
Date: 2001-10-16 23:19
I am sorry I find this to be very upsetting!!!!!!
I thought young clarinet players could come to this site and ask questions. I have told many elementry students to check out this site, and told them they could ask about anything. I might be miss understanding you, but it sounds like you are trying to turn this site into a "Pro's Only!" place. I hope that NEVER happens. I like the fact that there is a place to get help and not be put down.
So as far as I am concerned, all you younger clarinetist KEEP ASKING all of those questions about whatever you want; including horns you see on e-bay, mouthpiece choices, and/or embouchure.
PLEASE do NOT put these people down for trying to learn!!!!!
Thank you,
Sara
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-10-16 23:34
I think we clarinet types tend to be (now, let's be honest) somewhat anal and detail oriented. So it's a natural tendency to talk ad nauseum about all things relating to clarinet. I love it!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-10-17 01:05
The same questions will always get asked again and again until the teachers start really helping their students along. Perhaps in a generation or two, right? ;^)
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Author: Richard Fong
Date: 2001-10-17 06:48
Totally agree with Sara!
Warm feeling here althought that's the virtual internet.
Open mind, share with each other, let the child growth, increase their interest poco a poco.....
"The same questions will always get asked again and again.." so ??
"Mozart clarinet concerto will always played again and again... forever..."
Child like to ask question, means they are getting interested. We should happy, right?
We both a child of clarinet history.
Good hope.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-10-17 07:26
BEEJAY -
Please allow me to add that I, too, find great pleasure and enlightenment from visiting here. I've recommended Sneezy to many folks, young and seasoned, for the very reason that they may feel free to ask any question they want and I know that within a short time they'll get answers. First of all, I don't know all the answers and, secondly, it's much better than me saying something's so because I say so; isn't it? Don't we all appreciate second or third opinions? Because of the vast knowledge and experience pool this site attracts, I've been corrected many times about erroneous notions and ignorance I've diplayed. I only wish Sneezy had been available when I was a kid. I'm glad it's available now for interested parties. I never tire of answering questions, no matter how trivial they may seem to me. We all had to start some place... didn't we?
You wish to encourage esoteric and exotic topics, discourage fledgeling participation, while you complain that the Klezmer fans started their own gathering place. Why don't you show some initiative and do the same instead of berating those who already have?
History won't end here, it's being made here :]
I don't find your topic upsetting, beejay; I just hope you'll open your mind enough to appreciate some of the many comments it's bound to attract. You see, we love to contribute... even to subjects like this.
- ron b -
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2001-10-17 13:00
I agree with everyone's feelings that we should keep this board open to everyone. Beejay does, however, make one very good point -- though not too clearly ; ).
Before I post questions to this board, I always do a search, first. As a result, I have posted few questions but have found answers to all my questions.
Searching first could cut down on A LOT of repetitive threads.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-17 15:57
Hey, don't be too hard on me. I never meant to suggest either that this board shouldn't be open to everyone, or that we shouldn't have questions at any level. I've asked plenty myself and have always been surprised at the quality of the answers I get. I also try to answer questions from others whenever I know the answer, or think I have something useful to add. The point I am making is that we seem to be getting carried away by technicalities and not enough by the music our wonderful instrument produces. I read this forum every day, which makes me far from indifferent to its content. I merely happen to think we have had an awful lot about mouthpieces lately, and not enough about Mozart, Did Stadler, I wonder, get obsessed about ligatures?
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-10-17 19:56
As human, structured conversations is the way we learn, generally. Only a few of us learn by reading, and even fewer by thinking. Readings confirm conversations or initiate investigation trajectory. Questioning on specifics and listening to concrete answers is the usual way of the human brain. Contrary to common belief, the human species is first and above all an empirical species learning by doing (not by reading and thinking). In fact, writing (which crytalize thinking) or talking is often when thoughts are organized, solidified and added to the experience factory we carry in our head. Writing and talking are physical acts using the body kinetically. Just reading or listening is sterile.
In traditional academic and/or professional circles, there is an emphasis on approach to learning that are anything but empirical. To a large extend, the modern way of "attempting" to pass knowledge is articificial, in fact downright un-natural. It does not work. We remember a minuscule portion of what we read; we use an even smaller one. But we remember much more when the body is involved in the learning process.
Music cannot be made theoretically. So, music is profoundly empirical.
In music, learning is through the age-old master-apprentice method, with actual
physical work (i;e;: practice) carrying out most of the learning. We learn music today the way our forefathers learned everything: in the field, following the coaching of a master.
As I wrote before, music is one of the most basic, fundamental way of being a human. The way we learn it comes all the way from the depth of our origins.
Recently, it has become clearer that the best learning environment is empirical, but enriched and enlightened through structured conversations: focused questions, precise answers, constantly, in support of the execution of real tasks.
In advanced education, short work terms and short school terms in quick succession are great instances of this approach.
A good discussion board (like this one) is a great tool for virtual speaking circles implementing structured dialogue on issues of common interest. It is a fabulous learning tool, as long as we practice what we read about (my wife tells me I spend too much time on this Board instead of practicing - but I digress).
Since new people come in contact with this venue randomly, and at different level of development, older themes will reappear constantly. It is OK. They are learning.
If a topic is bores you, great! you have learned (I hope). Move to the next one. But give the novices a chance to start from scratch, like we all did (and like we are all doing - I suspect only very few on this board know more than what is left to know - the great majority of us still have more ahead of us than behind.)
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-10-17 20:17
Beejay: The title of your thread is inspired from a book called "the end of History" whereby the author (whose name escapes me at the moment) claimed that the victory of liberal democracy and of the market economy over totalitarian and communist views of the world hushered an era of peace, predictability and statism. September 11th has proven in a most tragic way that history is merely starting. There are 7 major cultural clusters on earth (western, asian, muslim, latin american, african, slavic and another one I forget at the moment), with many variations on details within each. History will end when we will have learned to live on a planet with an amazing cultural diversity, or when all of us will live the same way. Take your pick on this one, but we have centuries of work still ahead of us, with anything possible in our journey.
By the same token, a similar book called "the end of sciences" pretends that we have essentially learned most of what there is left to know, with only details remaining. The "Human Genome Project", just to name this one, is but one example of a scientific trajectory exploding in front of us with countless fundamental discoveries ahead of us. We still do not know how to create universes as far as I know. There is an infinite chasm between what we know how to do, and what it takes to create the universe as we perceive it today. Millenimums of discoveries await us.
Have we discovered all that there is to discover about music in general, and the clarinet in particular? We still do not know how to make a reed that works all the time.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-17 22:21
How about we take up John Gould's idea and start a thread about the clarinet and the animal world?
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Author: susannah
Date: 2001-10-17 22:37
For the most part i agree with what most people have said; keep the forum open and welcoming to everyone. However I also find the e-bay questions a little tiresome. Maybe there should be a section for this kind of stuff, i don't know
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-10-18 01:41
Gosh and Gee Whiz, what a philosophical turmoil we have here !! Its impossible for me to add more than to express enjoyment in the learning process and happiness to share what little I [think I] know about the clarinet family and music in general. Don
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Author: Richard Fong
Date: 2001-10-18 02:47
With apologies to beejay for my post.
I learned one more thing, search before ask, I can find much more than I expect. That's the simple of all computer FAQ but i missed.
Keep helping the novices find their answer in a quick, directly , interesting way... they happy, we happy..
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-10-18 03:38
This BB is many things to many people - and - you can not make all the people happy all the time but there is usually something for everyone to comment on, disagree with, give their experience with, or site either factual or myth based practices about. Without the newcomers this would be a very dry and tedious excercise. I would suggest, that if possible (and making music is more art than science), that we try to cull and sweep away some of the older myths and bad folklore (although often good folklore has a solid, if not scientific basis for survival) that we now have good scientific evidence and practical application experience to bolster good applications. I guess that everyone has their particular assumed roles on the BB - some expert musicians, some master technical specialists, some great teachers, some with scientific expertise, some just with good practical sense, some just with an opinion - that keep a balanced perspective (for the most part) on our discussions. I, for one, will always question the experiments with an "N" of one, faulty application of the scientific method in testing a hypothesis, inappropriate applications of substances or procedures to the physical clarinet, etc.. A voice of one only! We should all weigh the advice, practices, substances, and procedures fully before applying them to our music making and our horns because in the end it will be a personal decision. I hope that I do not bore too many people with my posts but just consider them another voice in the chorus.
The Doctor
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-10-18 04:29
All I know is I like Dixieland and yellow mustard on my hot dog.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-10-18 07:46
THE QUESTION WAS ASKED:
"Did Stadler, I wonder, get obsessed about ligatures?"
Not until his shoestrings wore out!
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Author: Taryn
Date: 2001-10-18 08:13
Beejay,
Maybe my *omebehrschurrree* question did not seem interesting or "new" to you, but it was very new on my plate. I (my teacher was out of town for a week) was desperate for advice and came to this board for help. I had no idea that there were rules to follow (spelling qualifications, searching archives before a post etc.) in this message board. Please forgive me for asking a question or saying something that... (oh my) had already been said. I don't think Beethoven wanted his 5th Sym. motive to be played just once. I feel that anyone, especially younger students like myself, should not be criticized or belittled for questioning the already questioned... Because it is the repetition that triggers a variation in response.
If you must talk about Chinese operas and entertaining zoo animals, I sugguest that you begin a "Pro Only" board that excludes curious young minds with equal to or less than three wrinkles on their foreheads.
tarynone@usc.edu
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Author: MsRoboto
Date: 2001-10-18 14:25
Keep asking whatever you want. We'll keep answering.
You never know there are new people and new opinions here all the time. Even if the question has been asked and answered you might get a new response or new outlook on the topic.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2001-10-18 15:33
Like many of the other respsonders here, I also feel this board should be open to all no matter what the question. repeated or not.
however, i think beejay sort of got what she wanted didnt she? many of the answers here are quite interesting and thot provoking. something other than the usual lig, mouthpiece questions. so, ther ya go.
btw..good post taryn.
JL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-10-18 15:39
janlynn wrote:
> however, i think beejay sort of got what she wanted didnt she?
Didn't <b>he</b>. ;^)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-18 20:04
Taryn. Please forgive my remarks about spelling. I am not an ogre. I am merely an old copy editor unable to repress his professional instincts.
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Author: Azzacca
Date: 2001-10-19 11:55
Being short on memory, I don't usually mind reading the same questions more than once. If there is a topic I'm tired of reading about, I just don't read it
As for spelling things - spelling errors bother me, but I work hard at ignoring them. Although there are days I would love to be able to go in and edit other people's posts to correct spelling (like I do at work when I see spelling errors.) Wouldn't that be a fun job for Mark to add to his list of duties
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-19 17:21
The Doc wrote:
" I hope that I do not bore too many people with my posts but just consider them another voice in the chorus."
Gosh, the Doc is one reason why so many of us are addicted to this site.
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Author: JC
Date: 2001-10-19 18:36
John, in reference to your comment about wolves (and this actually ties in with the high notes topic somewhere else) when I started playing above C5 and therefore squeaking a lot my dog did start to howl. Now he just runs away when I get my clarinet case out. The high notes sound better to me, but I guess not to him!
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Author: William Hughes
Date: 2001-10-20 06:36
We humans repeat history in endless, asymetrical cycles. Just as there were slight wrinkles in the immediate nanoseconds after the Big Bang, which guaranteed the nearly infinite diversity of the universe, each post to this BB is a new statement, at a new time, destined to reach a new audience, and which will in turn generate a whole new strain of ideas which will set the stage for future postings.
I have learned so much here in the last two months. There is no resource I can imagine that could address questions so inane, yet to me so important, as I have found here. Beyond what I have found for my own interests, I am (nearly) always interested in the explorations of all of the other posters, young and old, innocent and seasoned, aspiring amateurs and accomplished professionals.
Beejay, when I know more, perhaps I can contribute more and at a higher level. But I doubt that I will ever gain more satisfaction from the collective postings of these good people than now, when I know so little.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-10-20 12:37
JC,
The dog across the road howls every time a fire truck goes by, but keeps quiet when I play altissimo. I must be making progress.
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-10-20 22:09
beejay enquires, among other things:
> Did Stadler, I wonder, get obsessed about ligatures?
No, I believe Stadtler had a life (out guzzling beer quite often, I understand). I hope no one around this board is really "obsessed" about any of the topics, but if it happens, it's probably rather short-term.
As for whether questions on so limited a subject can continue indefinitely, I call to your attention the trade magazine, "Compressed Air Monthly."
Regards,
John
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Author: John Gould
Date: 2001-10-23 22:17
About them there wolves... I was part of a Dixieland band playing for a humane society gig. The wolves were of the Mexican grey variety and were smaller than what you might expect. Anyway, while I was warming up, I heard what I thought was a distant siren. I didn't pay any attention to it until a zookeeper ran up to me and said the wolves were getting very excited about my playing and would I mind warming up next to their enclosure?? The impressive part about all this is that the enclosure was a good 300 yards away, and thus my mistaking their howling for a siren. So, since the zoo wasn't open to the public at that point (they would open up at 1 and it was around noon), I said, sure, what the heck? It was one of the coolest things I've ever done!! They truly seemed to like what I was doing, but interestingly, it wasn't any one thing; I was playing legato octave leaps (chal f - to thumb f - to clar f to- alt f ,etc.), some bach unaccommpanied cello suite from memory, and scales. They seemed to like the octaves the best. Not once did I get the feeling I was causing them any discomfort, and I would have stopped immediately if I thought so. Also, I fooled around with trying to imitate their howls, i.e., matching registers, using glissandi, holding the top note, etc. They seemed to like all of it tho, not just the wolf-muzak I was trying to create. There's a great saxophone player name of Paul Horn who has played for wolves as well, and it's something that is sort of like swimming with dolphins except ya don't get wet!
Y'all should try it sometime, it would be interesting to compare notes (or howls). JG
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