 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Rausch
Date: 2001-10-10 15:12
Ok,
I did it again. I bought another clarinet from auction that is anything but normal. So its time to figure is out what it is: The horn has marked on it F. Barbier and is supposedly rosewood. Now, if I'm not mistaken is F. Barbier a model of Selmer horns ?
Next, the horn has lots of extra keys on it. Most of the extra keys are just different ways to finger certain notes, BUT it does has a Low D key with an extra tone hole on the clarinet. If you put the Horn next to an ordinary Bb clarinet it stands about 1.5 inches taller. My first thought was it might be a "A" clarinet, but the tone holes line up exactly with a "Bb" horn if you line them up with the top of the horn. Open G also sounds the same on both horns. Is it possible to have a Bb clarinet almost 2 inches longer than most Bb clarinets ?
Can Rosewood be dyed black ? Some parts of the horn look like rosewood, but its hard to tell. I tried the weight test, the extra keys and extended length of the instrument make it hard to tell.
I'll try to post some pictures later.
thanks Guys
Bob
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-10-10 15:43
A Bb with a low D key would be longer than a standard Bb. Is that a low D or Eb? The low D doesn't make sense.
As far as I know, any wood can be stained black if you want to.
I had the impression that F. Barbier was an old student model made by Selmer but the extra keys then don't make sense. If it is a student model, I doubt if it is rosewood.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing the pictures.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-10-10 16:23
Could that "extra" key be a low Eb--not low D--thus making the clarinet a "full Boehm" instrument? Ex.--five r-h little finger keys and six rings, rather than five.
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-10-10 17:18
Bob Rausch posts that he has bought another clarinet through eBay, He says: "The horn... is supposedly rosewood." Sellers' comments "it looks like rosewood to me" or something like that are seen a lot. I'd bet that not ten percent of the instruments that "look like rosewood" actualy are.
One rather involved test to determine comparative density of the wood with good accuracy is to measure the volume of part of the clarinet, say the barrel, by immersing it into a non-damaging liquid. Perhaps use a good vegetable oil, maybe almond or even olive -- or if you're concerned as to what this might do, you could use The Doctor's specially prepared wood oil (but it will take quite a bit). The barrel will not be immersed for very long, anyway. 1) Put some oil into a graduated cylinder (large enough diameter to hold the barrel) to a sufficient depth. 2) Measure the volume and record. 3) Gently lower the barrel into the oil. 4) Swirl things around a bit to ensure that no air bubbles are hanging on to the barrel. 5) Measure the level of the oil with the barrel in it. 6) Record that reading. 7) Remove the barrel from the oil and wipe it off thoroughly. 8) Subtract the initial reading (oil only) from the new one (oil plus barrel), and the result is the volume of the barrel. Repeat all of those steps with a barrel known to be blackwood. If the volumes are the same, then any weight difference will tell the tale. If they are not the same, adjust the weight by a ratio equal to the ratio of the two volumes. Got it? [You might borrow an appropriate graduated cylinder from a nearby high school science department. Someone there would also likely be willing to get an accurate measurement of weight or mass of the two barrels before they go into the oil. Some teacher of an introductory science class might, in fact, want to do this whole thing in front of a class as a demonstration of density comparison.]
Dee is no doubt correct that this thing may have a low E-flat, but not D. A 1 1/2 inch distance to the extra hole would be about right for a semitone (look at the distance between the E and F# holes for comparison). And features such as that surely do not add up to a student instrument.
Regards,
John
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Author: Stephen Froehlich
Date: 2001-10-10 18:20
The barrel gets wet all the time. Is there any harm in immerseing it in nice clean water (as opposed to water mixed with saliva) for a little bit and drying it? I thought that the water bit had more to do with pads than the wood.
Bob has almost certainly described a Full Boehm horn IMO.
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Author: Bob Rausch
Date: 2001-10-10 18:32
Sorry, I meant low Eb key.....
opps
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Author: Bob Rausch
Date: 2001-10-10 18:54
Thank-you guys for your input. I understand the density thing, and will try an experiment with the Bell. The barrel is marked Buffet and is not part of the original horn.
Rosewood or not, I'm going to have some fun restoring this instrument ! It does have a nice sound. I didn't expect it to be playable, but it actually was. I don't dare push it too hard until I have a chance to properly restore it, but the tone was pretty close to my R-13. Kinda scary even. It seems to be very "free blowing". Like I can put alot of air through the horn and get a strong dark sound ?(not bright) It kinda surprised me using a Glotin 4 reed that I could get that kinda sound ......weird.
Anyway, you guys have given me some excellent information !
Thank you
Robert Rausch
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-10-10 20:33
Why do so many people on this BB write "opps" when they mean "oops"? This is a very important question. People everywhere are holding their breaths awaiting an answer.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-10-10 21:51
Vunderbahr, Dave, now I can breath again!! Yes, I agree that Bob has an Selmer-clone full Boehm, I have a couple Sels FB's, if yours has a serial no.and/or you can post the EBAY description/number, I might be able to help you date it . Don
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2001-10-11 02:10
The Barbier models were sold by Selmer, but not made by them. I have seen some speculation that they were really made by Cousnon and that many were better than student grade. In the early 1930s, the metal Barbiers did sell for a tad more than the typical student grade horns. In any case, the serial numbers are not from the Selmer series.
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Author: Bob Rausch
Date: 2001-10-11 02:53
Ok,
Here is the item number on ebay. 1467602056.
Here is the URL
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll ViewItem&item=1467602056&ed=1001991182
It has some pictures for those that are interested.
Bob
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-10-11 03:50
Bob: I just looked at it, and it is really a good-looking piece! And a one-piecer, no less. This is no student horn.
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Author: Stephen Froehlich
Date: 2001-10-11 15:27
I like the pool-cue style case (grin).
I have to say, though, that the wood looks much darker than any rosewood I've seen. I can't imagine for the life of me why one might stain rosewood black. If you did, wouldn't it be more consistent than the natural grain you see here?
It could be walnut, but the variation from black to dark brown makes me think its simply unstained grenedalia (whatever grenedalia is - but that is a whole separate thread).
By the way, what do you plan to do with the keywork, get it replated?
Final rant: why would anyone ever sell 50 year old (usu. broken) reeds with a horn - ick!
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Author: Bob Rausch
Date: 2001-10-11 16:05
First off,
The pictures are deceiving. The horn is much lighter in color than in the pictures.
The keywork does not need to be replated, it needs to be de-tarnished and buffed back to its orginial shine. I took the Ab flat key off and did some work on it. Using the right tools and materials, it now looks brand new !
Yes, I threw reeds away. The answer to your rant: Why would anyone ever sell 50 year old (usu. broken) reeds with a horn - ick ! Because the person didn't know what it was. To the untrained eye it looks an old smelly horn that probably isn't worth anything.
After i finish restoring it, I'll take some proper pictures and post them.
Bob
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Author: IHL
Date: 2001-10-11 23:40
ack, it just says ERROR 403. I cant get to it.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-10-12 15:39
Did you check out the reed in that picture? No THERE's something that could use restoring!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-10-12 21:19
I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that it's unstained (and possibly dried-out) grenadilla, NOT rosewood. I've seen many older grenadilla (aka African blackwood, etc.) clarinets that were similarly colored --- many of these reverted back to a darker brown or almost black when the exteriors were treated to a little bore oil.
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