 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2001-10-03 23:18
This question regards the Wurlitzer line of clarinets. What are the odds of being able to win an orchestral job in the US playing one of these instruments? Naturally, I would not play on the German system instrument, but rather one with the same fingerings as the Buffet I play. I know that several orchestral clarinetists play on these clarinets(Combs and Zukovsky), but I do not know with what regularity. Plus, performing on a Wurlitzer is much different from winning a job on one! So, please do not think this question is asking whether or not one cares for that particular sound, as that is not the discussion I am attempt to start. Rather, I am trying to see if the professionals that visit this site think that my attempt in obtaining one of these instruments would be a waste of time here in the US. I realize that being able to win an orchestral job involves much more than just sound, such as counting, expression, etc. After playing one of these magnificant instruments I look at my Buffet in disgust!
Brandon Hood
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Author: rmk
Date: 2001-10-03 23:46
I've often thought about switching myself.
However, I play 2nd clarinet in a large regional orchestra, and I'd be afraid that the sound wouldn't blend with the section and that there could be intonation issues.
If I won the lottery, I would certainly purchase a set for solo and chamber work.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-10-04 17:31
I thought Combs used an Opus? What rock have I been under?
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-10-04 19:37
So they switch between French and German systems? That must be tough! I've heard changing to German can take away some of your technique. I guess that shows what kind of talent these guys have.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2001-10-04 20:29
You can purchase them with the standard French system fingering.
Brandon
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-10-05 02:12
Brandon -
I've not heard anything negative about Wurlitzer instruments. If you think they're magnificent instruments, what's the problem? If you prefer the French fingering system, what's the drawback?
I'm not quite following this thread. Since I got back into repair work I've been honing, somewhat, my Boehm playing for play-testing purposes. Actually, the switch between Albert (German) and Boehm (French) is not too great. Not much more of a change than clarinet and sax. Not that I was ever a whiz at either one but I sure have a lot of fun trying :] You must change your thinking a little at first, then go into automatic mode.
Seems to me we all fall into one of two categories: those who play well or those who need to improve. Horns are either good or not so good. Whichever one of these applies, there's always room for improvement.
- ron b -
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-10-05 21:31
Brandon -
I played Wurlizer instruments with Boehm (actually, Reform Boehm) keywork at the Columbus ClarinetFest a few years ago. The instruments do not have a French bore. Instead, the bore is a compromise between German and French dimensions and produces a tone that is also somewhere in between. They require a mouthpiece with a different chamber in order to play in tune. These instruments are played by many if not most Dutch players.
Boehm keywork applied to the German bore does not work well. Wurlitzer used to make these instruments, but they got universally bad reviews and were withdrawn. I played one in London a number of years ago, and, as you say, the construction, fit and finish were magnificent, and the clarinet responded much faster than any French instrument I've played. However, the colors were wrong. Clarion high C, for example, is one of the weakest notes on Boehm instruments, especially on the A clarinet, because it is vented through the small hole hole for the left index finger. On a German system instrument, it sounds through a large hole (with the left middle finger down) and is one of the best notes on the instrument. Also, you must use a German style mouthpiece and reed. With a French style mouthpiece, the sound has neither the German depth nor the French brilliance.
Of course you sound like yourself no matter what you play, but on the whole, I think it's easier to match other players in an orchestra if you play an instrument of the same design as they do.
The Chicago clarinet section is unusual. Larry Combs plays a Leblanc Opus, John Brude Yeh plays a Yamaha, and Greg Smith plays a Buffet. They match one another because they're top players and because their instruments are similar in design.
In certain kinds of music, the Chicago clarinet section uses Wurlitzer clarinets with German fingering. Larry Combs told me they were frustrating to play. They gave you the authentic German sound, but lacked the flexibility he's used to on French instruments.
Wurlitzers are great. By all means get then if it's your heart's desire. Be ready to wait 5 years and pay $10,000 for a pair and change your mouthpiece and reed, though, and don't expect them to solve all your problems.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Clarivirtuoso
Date: 2016-02-18 11:40
I know that this thread is a bit old, but I'm new here, and I really want to give my view on this:
Wurlitzer are simply amazing instruments, but they are fundamentally german clarinets with german bores, you cannot go back and forth between french and german bores and play both really well. It takes anywhere from a month to a year to change your embouchure and breathing to play the german bore.
It is a serious commitment and is a complete change, but the only reason you're going to do it is if you want a german sound!
As far as getting a job in America, I'd feel more confident knowing I have an instrument that's been hand crafted by a master and has been made specifically for me, rather than some factory produced random combination of parts that I have to try 10 of to find a "good" one.
I also think that if it's good enough for the masters in the Berlin Philharmonic and Royal Concertgebouw orchestras (and many more, mind you), it'll be just fine in an American hall.
If you have the money and the time to devote to transforming your sound, then I would recommend it 100%. That's what I did, and I don't miss my R13 prestige for one moment, and it is currently a lamp. XD And it hasn't even gotten to the stage where it goes back to Germany where the "master bore polishing" takes place. After that, it's gonna be even better!!!
Best of luck to you!
~Steven~
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-18 14:49
Dear Steven,
Hey there, and welcome aboard!
I have had 13 years on Oehler system Wurlitzers (1984-2000) but have since abandoned them. Recently my curiosity with what did not go right was reignited when I was sent a German mouthpiece by Bas de Jong of the Hague and told that the traditional strength used by German players on these small tipped mouthpieces was 2 1/2.
Since then (about three months now) I have been on a wild ride to re-aquaint myself with the mouthpiece/embouchure but this time do it correctly. I find that even though it will play with an almost effortless embouchure, once in the mix it does take a long time to adjust to the different pitch and pressure oddities as you go to make music. At three months and counting I feel that I am still in need of more time to get things where I want them, though things are really coming together (only just in the last week mind you).
Question for you: Do you use Oehler system? What mouthpiece do you use (Wurlitzer, Zinner, other)? What facing is it (helpful also if you could provide tip opening and facing length in millimeters)? What reed strength do you use?
I am currently using a Wurlitzer M3 mouthpiece (.83mm tip opening and 23mm length) with a #3 Legere German cut reed (oddly, the best equivalent right now for me to a 2 1/2 Vandoren White Master).
And funny you mention the bore polishing! That was another proper thing I ignored back-in-the-day that was necessary. It took many years for me to hear that Wurlitzer uses a lacquer finish down the bore of their brand new horns. This wears in the first year and needs to be polished out. Once done though, you are set from then on!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-02-18 17:58
Wurlitzers are great instruments. I've owned a set of 1951 Fritz Wurlitzer clarinets, playing them occasionally since my teenage years, and I even sold Wurlitzers for a couple of years.
I think, however, that the mystique and the ethnic arguments should be separated from performance realities. In other words, there are many reasons to play an instrument--including a Wurlitzer--beyond wanting a "German" sound (or any other sound for that matter). What matters is whether an instrument is helpful in achieving what the performer needs/desires on the repertoire they play. For anyone in the classical world, that will cover a lot of ethnic ground, and for a jazz musician, sounding German (or French or Belgian or Kenyan or Indonesian) won't matter.
As far as the master craftsman mystique...once again, that's subject to a lot of analysis...not the least of which ought to be careful examination of the entire horn itself (can't tell you how many players miss some things hiding in plain daylight on that count). That aside, the best piece of equipment is the one that works for you, not necessarily the one that was "specially made for you." That's a bit of a red herring anyway, as so far as I know, Wurlitzer doesn't make instruments with anyone specifically in mind. In other words, they don't tailor their instruments to the physical needs or desires of the players--they simply make what they make, and you either buy it or you don't. Oftentimes I've found that many Wurlitzer players, because of their greater reverence for the "mastercraftsman mystique" behind the instrument they play, have an increased attitude that the player should conform to the instrument to get best results, rather than the other way around. As a psychological matter, this can help the player move beyond blaming their equipment to working on their playing, and is probably a good attitude--but it can work on other instruments as well.
My advice: Play what works best for you. Probably 99% of the gigs I've played over the last several years have been on a Selmer Centered Tone. I've heard professional friends play beautifully on Buffet R13s. Make your decisions on how well you can reach your musical goals, rather than on mystique and an ideal ethnic theory. If Wurlitzers can give you that, fantastic. Be glad you found your answer. Then, whatever you've decided on, hit it hard and transform yourself into a finer musician, not worrying so much about the equipment.
Eric
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-02-19 20:22
"German sound" isn't as simple as it sounds. There are German players who play Wurlitzers but don't sound much like Karl Leister, and some even have more than a hint of the beer tent in their sound--more so 20 years ago than now, though. My experience is that Paul is right in saying the embouchure requires less effort, but a lot of things still need to be balanced and managed to get the sound you want. If it were easy . . .
As far as playing jobs in America, there's as much variation in sound and ability to blend among people playing Buffets as there is among really good players on Buffets, Wurlitzers, Eatons and other top-grade instruments. Marcellus was probably closer to Leister than to Wright. But Wurlitzers really aren't "made just for me." You order one specifying among a handful of options and they make it, but if you want to really see "made just for me," check out the Schwenk & Seggelke website. People say they're very good instruments, too, but I haven't tried one yet.
Some people aren't ecstatic about the tuning on Wurlitzers. I had tuning problems playing Wurlitzer Oehlers in a 440 - 442 environment, but I don't blame HW for that, since everyone knows they're pitched for Berlin. The Reform Boehms are supposed to be pitched for 440, but comments have been made that if they have to choose between good voicing for a note and spot on pitch, they'll go for the voicing. Some players can adjust for that better than others.
Post Edited (2016-02-19 20:29)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-02-20 00:37
If we take it back to the 2001 OP, I'd agree with David on this one--I don't see anyone winning a major American audition on a Wurlitzer. One caveat: I don't think it has to do with technical proficiency (those who play German system at a high level play as technically solid as French system players--I've sat next to German system players who could shred), but the sound quality and concept is very different. It's just not what American orchestras are used to hearing. The best chance for Wurlitzers to succeed in the American classical market, IMO, is for established players to switch. But if you're established, it's in part because you've excelled on a different make...so why would you change? Not many top players are so frustrated with their equipment that they'd rebuild their playing on the job, which is really what it takes to switch.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-02-20 00:39
"The german system lends to less technical proficiency - harder to play quickly on it."
Yeah. Among German players, the macho thing to do with the BCBCBCs in the second phrase of Mozart is to alternate the first and second fingers of the left hand. There are a couple alternates you could use, but you'd be a wimp if you use them. Sort of like never using the chromatic fingering for upper register F to F# unless you're trilling. A bit different way of thinking about the instrument for sure.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-02-20 00:46
Meh. Others thought they were great changes. Really a mixed bag. When I sold them, I was able to test models dating from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s all the way up to 2010. My impression was that the very best were the ones made in 2010, which were the first H. Wurlitzers I'd ever played that struck me as finally being the equal of the old Fritz Wurlitzer models--they reclaimed some of the power and color of those old Fritzes. Others might see that as a weakness, I guess, wanting a more restrained color palette. Or it might just vary between instrument and instrument.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2016-02-20 01:19
Gorgeous sound, and very artistic to play say Brahms on one, but some pieces are really, really hard on them.
The finger stretch is hard also. I've only played a couple of minutes on a German System (Michele Z, and Wenzel F's Clarinets), and my proficiency wasn't much of jack 
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-02-22 06:54
Hi dorjepismo,
Are you sure that most German players play BCBC using that fingering? I know Sabine Meyer uses the side key but Widmann uses middle finger to play C. I always use side key but I don't want people to call me a "wimp"...
Lee
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-22 07:20
That fingering is the same sort of decision we have to make going from fifth line "F" to "F#" or first space "F" to "F#." The last example Marcellus preferred moving from thumb to first finger. A colleague talked him into trying the sidekey just before a performance. In performance Marcellus (believe it or not) admitted to a pretty big bauble trying the sidekey and NEVER tried it again.
Personally I think using the finger holes keeps the fingers aligned over their respective tone holes better.........much better discipline. Same goes for the Oehler fingerings. It's only a matter of getting used to it to achieve a smooth transition from note to note. I recall seeing an old Berlin video with Leister clear as day using a rather fast first and second finger combination for the BCBC.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-02-22 20:59
Dear Paul,
If you have a look at Widmann's recent performance (at Youtube, with Frankfurt Radio Orchestra), you can find even Widmann cannot play it very smoothly. Personally I believe if there is a slur and it is pretty fast, we really should use the side key or the small key to play BCBCBC. At least Sabine Meyer plays like this but I found no one plays fifth line "F" using the left little finger, thus the EFD using fork fingering usually is not super smooth if it is a slur. I think the reason for the second case is because normally student model German clarinets have no such left hand F key.
Lee
Paul Aviles wrote:
> That fingering is the same sort of decision we have to make
> going from fifth line "F" to "F#" or first space "F" to "F#."
> The last example Marcellus preferred moving from thumb to first
> finger. A colleague talked him into trying the sidekey just
> before a performance. In performance Marcellus (believe it or
> not) admitted to a pretty big bauble trying the sidekey and
> NEVER tried it again.
>
>
> Personally I think using the finger holes keeps the fingers
> aligned over their respective tone holes better.........much
> better discipline. Same goes for the Oehler fingerings.
> It's only a matter of getting used to it to achieve a smooth
> transition from note to note. I recall seeing an old Berlin
> video with Leister clear as day using a rather fast first and
> second finger combination for the BCBC.
>
>
>
>
> ...............Paul Aviles
>
Post Edited (2016-02-22 21:53)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-02-22 22:28
Hi Klose,
My experience with German players is from the mid '70s; it's entirely possible the outlook has become more practical since then.
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