 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Linus Travelli
Date: 2001-10-03 23:54
Do i really need to oil my keys? my r13 is about a year old and i haven't experienced any problems.
should i oil them anyways.?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-10-04 00:22
Yes. Use key oil Sparingly. Once or twice a year is about right.
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Author: drew
Date: 2001-10-04 00:54
One of the great features of this board is the many differing views you will get on the simplest question.
I have a different view on key oiling; only apply oil if you are experiencing sluggish action due to high friction. By oiling the keys too often, guess what happens? Excess key oil seeps down onto the wood body, usually in the most inaccessable areas. Petroleum products and wood are not compatible. Also, the excess oil will hold any dust that comes along, soon you will have big fuzzy patches, also in inaccessable areas.
Unless you have a problem, leave the key oil alone! If you do have a problem, try to get it looked at by a good tech. Only when in extremis apply the key oil.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-10-04 01:41
I hate to venture out on those long shakey limbs !! This is a question for experienced repair persons and there will probably be several opinions from good people. It may relate to the oil and wood controversy (how did he get there you may ask?). Well - it depends on the oil that you use and also the condition of all those moving parts of your horn and their composition. I agree with the posts so far that over oiling can cause oil to seep into the wood - depending on the type of oil used it can accelerate wood rot (especially around the posts) over time.
Some of the classic oils used are: petroleum based light mineral oil or low SAE (ISE - << 0 weight) refined oils, and some clock oils (when asked, a well known professional clarinetist said that they used the thinest motor oil that they could find and tweaked the viscosity with trombone slide oil until just "right" - sort of like Grandma's pinch of seasoning I guess). The "classic" clock oil used to be made from sperm whale oil fractionation. This oil had some great attributes from Nature including viscosity stability and little residue upon evaporation. The sperm whale oil also had some natural antioxidant and anti-rust compounds in it and bonded to the metal. The "reformulated" clock oils are either new synthetic oils or plant based oils because sperm whale oil is no longer used. Many of these oils do not have the antioxidation and antirust properties of sperm whale oil. These oils only coat the surface and form no bonding with the metal surfaces. Certain of these oils show large viscosity changes with temperature.
The answer to frequency (although infrequently is probably better IMHO) - should be up to the repair professionals but one should compare oils - apples to apples and forget about the oranges. Of course I tilt at many windmills and refuse to use whale oil products or wine with synthetic corks.
The Doctor
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-10-04 02:39
I oil neither wood nor keys.
I take all my clarinets, saxophones and wooden flutes to the shop for oiling and adjustment any time I deem they require it.
Although when I previously asked the question "To oil or not to oil..." I got a bunch of good responses which helped me to make up my mind that in the future, while I will still take my instruments in for "servicing," I will also provide the oils I want used on them, which will come from the Doctor.
Aside from that, I have never been good at potentially messy things, so if I oiled these things myself, I would probably ruin pads, corks and wood alike.
Consequently, my advise is to have all this stuff professionally done. Instrument repair technicians don't charge very much just for oiling and/or a slight tune-up, and if they screw up a pad or cork, etc. , well, they are repair technicians, they can fix it right in-house before you ever see it again!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-10-04 02:47
Peter, I think your thought process makes sense. However, I would worry that the repairperson would keep the Doc's "good stuff" & use the crummy bore oils on your horn.
(Note: I have always thought we should put dyes in swimming pool to identify the "pee-culprits". I think the Doc is gonna have to come up with something to test the bore after your repair tech is done.)
best,
mw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-10-04 03:20
Dear mw and all-
I could give you the formula for the pool indicator (just kidding). BTW - I do have signature properties for my products for other reasons. We must have some faith and trust in those that serve us - doctors, lawyers, pilots, plumbers and the list goes on. If you did not trust your repair person why would you use them? There are many that do not fall into the discrete catagories: good - OR - cheap but are very knowledgable and experienced technical wizards that charge a fair price. Come on guys and women - even the best of materials (oils) are cheap compared to everyday products that you buy in the cleaning section of the grocery store, and are a tiny fraction that you paid for the horn - mw will probably give us the exact figures - price per tone played per unit time! What we really need is a cost/benefit analysis.
The Doctor
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-10-04 04:31
Dust sticks to oil. Oiled key axles will accumulate dust. Key axles *must* have some oil on them, or friction will screw them up. It should be a *very* small amount of oil. Oil hardly evaporates, although it will migrate. Put these all together and here's what we get:
If keys are sluggish, either the oil that was there has migrated away or accumulated a lot of dust. If it has gone, it may have gone into the wood. This migration happens much more easily if the oil originally was applied too liberally. Oops. If it's dusty, putting more oil on the axle won't really do a whole lot of good in the long run.
So, for my $0.02 worth, Don't add oil without cleaning off the old grunge. It's likely to just make more grunge. After the axle is clean, put on a *tiny* bit of oil. My way: take the whole axle apart and clean it thoroughly before putting it back together. The oil is put on with a toothpick, soaking a tiny bit in the tip, then applying it to each end of the axle. Then manipulate the key a great number of times, picking up with a tissue any oil that shows. [For long axles that may need more oil than this technique will provide, get a used insulin syringe (with the needle tip clipped off) from a diabetic friend. With proper control, that thing can squirt out an amazingly tiny bit of oil.]
I would be delighted to hear any other suggestions.
Regards,
John
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-10-04 05:45
Here is the best suggestion:
If it is such a delicate operation that there are all those cautionary views on everyone's part, don't be cheap, take it to a professional to have it done!!
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-10-04 12:50
Anyone out there with experience using gun oils or Molybdenum disulfide lubes?
These low-viscosity petrols should migrate by capillary action... don't you want the grease to stay put?
I know that it may be sacreligious to think of the clarinet as a machine.
Then again, there ain't any big lettas after my name.
anji
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Author: Stephen Froehlich
Date: 2001-10-04 13:28
Also, anyone out there with any expierence with the Dr.'s aerospace oil that he sells as key oil? Does anyone out there use a PTFE (Teflon) infused oil?
I'll try to be more sparing with my key oil in the future, though. I'm afraid I'm a little liberal on my rod assemblies. I have to remember that the rods aren't sealed to hold a thick layer of oil in.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-10-04 13:32
jmcaulay I respectfully beg to differ.
OVER-oiled pivots collect dust.
Non-oiled pivots accumulate rust! - unless you live with very low humidity.
Appropriate oils do not migrate when held in location by capiliary action.
(However fabric case lining in contact with oiled areas will wick away the oil.)
Properly fitted steel (or S/S) against the cupronickel of keys, with light loads, has neglible friction, and will not 'stuff up' the metal. If keys are sluggish the cause will be anything BUT lack of lubrication (or grit), e.g. bent pivot tube, bent pivot rod, Threaded post out of axial alignment with pivot rod, multiple posts out of alignment with eachother, bent cylindrical-type 'point' pivot, binding between posts, poorly adjusted play in point pivots, and especially 'varnish' residue form an evaporated, inappropriate oil (e.g. "3-in-1").
I consider lubrication to be the most minor of the purposes of the oil. The major ones are rust prevention, silencing of mechanism, and prevention of 'sympathetic' vibration of parts against eachother.
Anji. No problem. A clarinet mechanism MUST be treated as machinery to be treated appropriately.
Re Gun oil: Is that for the mechanism of guns, the bore, or permeate the oxide (?) finish of the steel to increase rust resistance?
Whichever one, the needs here are very different from the needs in clarinet mechanism. Even gun mechanism is rather different in that the loads on the metal are quite a lot higher, and there are not very light springs working against the fluid friction of the quite high surface areas associated with pivot rods, and the metals involved are usually both steel, etc.
Lubricants are formulated for specific engineering applictions (or to please accountants, heaven help us!) and IMHO it is rather technically naive to select lubricants in a hap-hazard way.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-10-04 14:19
What an interesting discussion of clar keywork [small-sized machinery] lubrication!! YES, IMHO it needs it, for rapid , unimpeded motion AND protection from rusting of steel screws and rods. While there are many-many "oils", dating on back to "naturals" [fish, whale, vegetable and soaps] and now-a-days highly refined [and selected] petroleum and petrochemical [polyolefinic et al - additions to "base" oils], the factors of smell, degradability, viscosity and "Viscosity Index" [highly important when used in internal and other combustion services] are taken into consideration by lube engineers. I didn't intend to "lecture" on this, but have had some practical experience. I like to use the mfgr-supplied key oils with maybe 10% of added automotive oil, SAE 5, 10, 30, [distillate-oils] SAE 40 + [solvent-extracted oils] in a "sparing" fashion, wiping up any spillage-seeping from wood/plastic bodies, applied to the points of potential friction, and watching capillarity do its beneficial work!! However, "to each his own method" . Don
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-10-04 14:37
Anji,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say, "low viscosity petrols," can I safely assume that you are talking about petroleum-based products?
Because the one thing I think I have best understood from the several questions and answers, from the different instances that oiling wooden instruments has been discussed on the BB since I joined it, has been that everyone who seems to know about the subject is saying that petroleum-based products are bad for the wood, and that key oils can accidentally be spilled or migrate on to the wood.
Therefore, why consider their use and risk damaging the wood around the posts, if there are other oils that do the job, perhaps even better, and are generally safer for the instrument?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-10-04 14:43
Don,
I could be wrong, but the idea of "wiping up any spillage-seeping from wood/plastic bodies," scares me to no end.
Especially when refering to petroleum-based products on the wood of some of my better instruments.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-10-04 15:20
I appreciate the knowledge shared by the people that do the work and have the experience. I would caution against using the molybdenum or PTFE oils. When the oil migrates it can leave behind a sludge of moly or teflon particles that can actually do more harm than good to the delicate tolerances of the clarinet "machinery". Some of the new formulations of motor oils have antirust and antioxidation additatives that do not "sludge out" but usually do not come in viscosities low enough to use directly. Ninety-five percent of branded manufacturers key oils are light mineral oil or light petroleum distillates that contain no antirust or antioxidation additatives. Alisyn makes a synthetic key oil - slide oil that is very good and contains anti - additatives.
Many of the aerospace - MIL Spec. lubricants - have been designed for extreme conditions including huge temperature variations, viscosity change, and vacuum where most common oils evaporate and leave no lubrication behind. In order to work in these applications the chemical engineers produced synthetic oils that form bonds with the metal surfaces that are greater than the energy of evaporation. In space do they have to worry about rust? -- Yes, if water is present in the surroundings of metal parts it will form water vapor - tiny droplets or even individual water molecules. Because of the much larger surface area of water vapor it will accelerate rust and oxidation of metal parts in close proximity - especially if it is raw metal not protected by some agent - bonded surface oil lubricant. If metal parts are not protected by lubricant the tiny metal particles produced by friction will remain in contact with the metal by the internal gravitational attraction of the metal part. Although having little weight (weightless in space is a misnomer), frictional forces actually produce greater wear components in space than they do on Earth. Often oxygen, if present, is in the oxgen radical form which accelerates oxidative degradation reactions.
Since there are few clarinets in space - has anyone ever taken one up? - the lubricant engineers did not consider interactions of their lubricants with wood - cellulose. Many of these lubricants are not suited for even casual contact with wood - others are compatible. Unfortunately NASA does not list wood compatibility as a specification of lubricants but they do list a number of other useful specifications and testing procedures with various metals and alloys. What a treasure hunt!!! - 183 (and counting) lubricants are NASA Mil. Spec. listed.
Do you need to use these aerospace lubricants on your horn rather than other oils - probably not! Your choice or the choice of your repair person. Just remember that you are going to need and oil change before you take it on a space flight!
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-10-04 15:42
Peter- I really dont disagree with your views, however I'm not at all sure how good metal/metal lubrication one can get from "bore oils" even those almond or apricot [preferred] oils with antioxidants etc added. It seems to me that even ordinary petro-based key oil doesnt soak into wood all that rapidly, and like all liquids, has some vapor pressure thereby evaporating at least slowly. Actually, of course pet oils have come from chemical degradation of vegetation, the paraffinic, naphthenic, and aromatic hydrocarbons becomming the most resistant to further oxidation etc reactions! Perhaps Dr. LOH can give us some help here . Gordon's point re: dust is very valid, but all oils will collect! Clean cases carefully and/or use plastic sacks for UJ and LJ ! Still interesting/ed !! Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-10-04 16:06
Dear Don and all,
Actually the harmful interactions of petroleum based oils with wood have little to do with oxidation reactions but they do lead to collapse of the wood fiber structure and therefore the structural integrity of the wood. Way back in the wood-oil posts I cited some of my own research while in Rhode Island looking at the wood floors in some of the many old abandoned fabric mills in the State. Some of these floors had been soaked in machine oil for decades and microscopic analysis of the oil soaked wood versus adjacent wood indicated some pretty dramatic changes in the wood structure in oil soaked wood. This is probably an extreme example and has no direct correlation with grenadilla wood (I could not find such a floor to test).
Horns that have been grossly overoiled, where the oil has dripped down the posts show degradation of the wood around the post - I am sure that repair persons have seen this phenomenon many times in their work. This degradation of the wood around the posts can lead to posts becoming loose in their wood moorings and increased torque and wear on the metal parts because of this instability.
The Doctor
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-10-04 19:07
Don,
Idid not mean that "wood" oil should be used on metal parts, only that there are oils out there that are not petroleum-based and are friendlier to the wood than petroleum-based oils.
If some of these other oils accidentally soak into the wood, they may not cause as much damage, while it is my understanding that petroleum-based oils are never good for the wood.
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-10-05 06:28
Gordon (NZ) wrote, in part:
jmcaulay I respectfully beg to differ.
>>>Feel free, Gordon. If we agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary. 
OVER-oiled pivots collect dust.
Non-oiled pivots accumulate rust! - unless you live with very low humidity.
Appropriate oils do not migrate when held in location by capiliary action.
(However fabric case lining in contact with oiled areas will wick away the oil.)
>>>In fact, I live on the edge of the Mojave Desert, and humidity here is generally quite low. But I have *never* advocated not oiling clarinet mechanisms. Dust is collected by oil, OVER or not. As long as there is oil on a surface, it will collect the same amount of dust whether it is a thick or thin layer. And I definitely agree that the application of *something* is necessary to minimize rust, and oil is so convenient, at least until clarinet manufacturers begin coating their pivots and axle screws with a thin coating of Teflon or Nylon. I also agree that capillary action or surface tension will generally keep the oil in place, but do note that every time a key is manipulated, the oil moves. This motion can cause oil to leave the pivot or axle.
Properly fitted steel (or S/S) against the cupronickel of keys, with light loads, has neglible friction, and will not 'stuff up' the metal.
If keys are sluggish the cause will be anything BUT lack of lubrication (or grit), e.g. bent pivot tube, bent pivot rod, Threaded post
out of axial alignment with pivot rod, multiple posts out of alignment with eachother, bent cylindrical-type 'point' pivot, binding
between posts, poorly adjusted play in point pivots, and especially 'varnish' residue form an evaporated, inappropriate oil (e.g.
"3-in-1").
>>>I agree that some type of misalignment is a more likely source of improper operation than is lack of lubrication. I also concur that improper oil is rotten. Please note that my post on this subject did not address oil types at all, as I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make suggestions in that area. However, you have mentioned "3 in 1" as a no-no, and I'd like to suggest that molybdenum and Teflon lubricants should also be avoided.
I consider lubrication to be the most minor of the purposes of the oil. The major ones are rust prevention, silencing of mechanism, and prevention of 'sympathetic' vibration of parts against eachother.
>>>It would seem that "silencing of mechanism" is a function of lubrication. But perhaps you have something else in mind.
>>>Gordon, it was not the primary intent of my post to provide a treatise on the purpose and functioning of oil in a clarinet mechanism. The main point I intended was this: Clean the thing before oiling it. Maybe I just should have said that and then shut up. I do tend to be too long-winded. [You may have noticed.]
Regards,
John
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-10-05 07:08
Keys need oil to prevent rusting of steel screws and axles as well as to prevent friction and minimize wear. For many years, I've used 10W-40 motor oil for this purpose on many instruments with good results. Good motor oils do not gum up or cause sluggish action of mechanisms. This is on the advice of a motor oil chemist expert I met a long time ago. To minimize dust collection on the instrument posts or body, one should apply sparingly. It also works great on oboes and English horns which are a much more critical application than clarinets. Although I have on occasion applied more than needed, no affect on the wood has ever been detected.
Without oiling, the mechanism will wear more, requiring more frequent swedging of keys in order to have precise key action.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-10-05 10:46
I see the lubricating function of the oil as needing different specs for point screw than to pivot tubes. The latter has a far greater surface area, hence lower loads and more fluid friction.
For the point screws I use a lathe-bed (metal lathe) oil because I perceive the requirements in these two situations to be very similar. (But I have not considered any possible interaction between this oil and cupronickel or silver, for which it was not formulated)
For pivot tubes I have used Alisyn, usually the more viscous 'heavy duty' version, for a long time.
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