 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2001-09-26 11:56
The bell ring on my SE-V tarnishes quickly also. It seems that each time the tarnish is polished off you remove some of the silver on the ring. Do it often enough and there will be no silver left.
Why not just leave the tarnish on? Will leaving the tarnish on prevent all the silver plating from oxidizing off? ie: is tarnish a surface effect? Or will it just tarnish until all the silver is oxidized away?
Matt
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-26 12:16
The top layer of tarnish will provide some partial protection to material underneath it as it provides a slight barrier against the oxidizing agents penetrating into the metal. Hypothetically, over a long enough period of time, the metal would eventually completely oxidize.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 13:24
We have also had a number of posts on silver and silver polishing cloths in recent times. Both products, Brasso (an old Military polishing standby - since you could tell the new kids on the block by their lacquered and high definition - all the lines and ridges distinct - of their collar brass, the old timers would show the recruits how to remove the lacquer and wear down the brass to look shiny and worn by rubbing it on towels impregnated with Brasso) is way too abrasive for continued use on silver plating. The Never Dull product contains ammonia and abrasive compounds which are also too harsh. Why not use cloths with exceptionally mild abrasive action used for fine silver - sold in jewelery stores and silver departments in large department stores? I have documentation that indicates that some of the branded silver polishing cloths (see previous posts) are too abrasive and may even cause visable scratching. The ultimate goal is to remove the agents that cause the tarnish - which include a host of pollutants in the air and sulphur compounds in the clarinet's environment. The 3M anti-tarnish strips are good to keep in the case, a placard of silver anti-tarnish cloth covering the horn, and a soft cloth should be used after playing to wipe the plating before retiring the horn to the case. Indeed, the alloy used on the bell ring is more prone to tarnish than the rest of the plating and thus deserves special attention. In some urban areas a pollution scavenger formulation in the case (a concept of mine-no commercial product yet) may reduce tarnish.
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-26 13:39
Omar - read my posting on Nevr-Dull below. I don't think it is a high abrasive at all.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 13:56
Just thought of a followup - with silver polishing cloths, in general, you pay for what you get, - the off-brand cloths will cost less than those cloths made by companines that have been known for a long time for their fine silver polishing products. These off-brands, may or may not be of similar quality. A good cloth should last you for years and years so a "penny saved" now will be worth 1/100 cent by the time you need to replace the cloth.
A rough rule of thumb - Jeweler's rouge, often color coded by abrasive qualitites, comes in many grades and levels of consistency among grades (not the average distribution of the abrasive particle but the tightness of the spread - especially to larger particle sizes - around the mean size) - -- if the cloth is red or blue (not grey) it may have more of the larger (more abrasive) particles than the grey ones. Some of the best cloths are grey and cream color corresponding to the finest white and black polishing rouge preparations used by jewelers. Caveat - color is a less than perfect way to assess cloths.
The Doctor
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 14:21
Dear Mark,
Yes, Never Dull is less abrasive than Brasso but more so (the combination of the chemical action that removes the tarnish - silver sulfide compounds - and a raw cotton batting) than silver cloths. Maybe ya'll are better at applying it than me but I can still see the liquid touching my wood, even though I wipe it off immediately. Ammonia and clarinet wood wood is not a good combination - what about this ammonia liquid that gets sucked up by capillary action under the bell ring that you can not get to? Just giving my opinion - pronouncements are only for the IRS.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-26 14:39
Some postulations in my ingnorance:
1. Bell rings, I believe, are normally installed by shringing a ring around the timber with a powerful press. This would likely leave sever marks on silver plating, which is much softer than the usual bse metal, cupro-nickel. So how are they installed with no plating damage?
Could they be bufffed and plated AFTER installation? If so it would not be a thorough (thick) 'immersion' plating because the chemicals would be rough on timber. Superficial 'brush' plating could be emplyed with care, and this would probably quickly wear through.
This problem does not apply to the tenon socket rings which are pressed on from the end of the timber, and not shrunk on.
...So I wonder just how many of these corroding bell rings are actually silver plated. They may be well-buffed, unplated cupronickel, which appears like silver until it tarnishes. (Ever seen the unplated line where the ring was soldered together?) Silver polish hardly touches cupronickel. Brasso does.
...Or are they made from sterling silver so that plating is not needed? If so perhaps we should be aware that traces of certain metals (rhodium & palladium?) are sometimes alloyed with the silver in silver plating - to reduce the speed of tarnishing. It is unlikely that a solid silver bell ring would be of this alloy, so this may explain it tarnishing faster.
2. There are many sources of sulphur in the environment, and sulphur compounds are the main culprets in tarnishing silver. One of the environmental sources of sulphur is wool (and wool felt, incidentally - I wonder if this causes the pitting on some flutes where the felt contacts the body!!). Could the excessive tarnish of bells - for some people only - be as a result of the player resting the end of the bell on wool trousers or skirt during bars rest, etc.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-26 14:56
Omar,
Where does Flitz fall in the abrasiveness, continuum?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-09-26 15:10
Speaking of Flitz, doesn't Leblanc sell it to use on their instruments? I remember seeing it in a catalog, and flitz did advertise on the item that it was "safe" for musical instruments.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 15:51
I've looked a little at Flitz - it seems to be an emulsion of fine abrasive particles in a modified mineral oil vehicle - most of these products contain "trade secret" formulations however. It would take much more investigation to find out what the mean abrasive particle size and particle distribution was in the commerical product. All, in all, it is pretty mild and "seems" not to be as abrasive as some other metal polishes ( --- this is a pretty evasive statement and worthless evaluation however). Perhaps someone can tell me what "safe" means in this context - sounds good but what does it mean? One could make a career out just researching these questions but I have a pretty full plate myself and this does not make the top ten on my "to do list" right now.
The Doctor
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 16:20
Jack, there are DIFFERENT varieties of FLITZ. Local Boat stores carry at least 3 of them. I use the Fiberglass-Rubber polish. Don't they claim it is biodegradabble and the LEAST abrasive of many polishes compared? (of course, that could be advertising hype) I used to use Gel Gloss, but the Flitz polishes better. However, there is a Gel Gloss SPRAY which I have been using which, to me, seems to be the least ABRASIVE (... it also does the least job of polishing, too). mw
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-09-26 16:28
L. Omar Henderson (The Doctor) said, in part:
"Perhaps someone can tell me what "safe" means in this context - sounds good but what does it mean?"
Always an excellent question. I once owned some spaghetti bowls marked "dishwasher safe." The glaze soon began flaking off in large sheets, and the ceramic checked and fell apart. I concluded that "dishwasher safe" on those bowls evidently meant if they were placed in a dishwasher, they would not cause the equipment to explode.
The original question on the tarnished ring related to a nickel-plated ring. Nickel can be plated quite heavily, in which case it's very protective. However, if plated very thinly it can be porous, offering little protection to the base metal. This may have been the case with the original poster's instrument. Perhaps the best way to combat this (if it's out of warranty) would be to remove carefully the apparent corrosion by gentle means, then paint clear lacquer on the ring.
Regards,
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 17:24
Thanks to all - a wealth of knowledge. Gordon, mw, Mark, David and many others come up with both practical and technical stuff that amazes me and all we should all file away somewhere for other projects and a base to build upon. And always, someone (jmcaulay) brings us back to a practical solution (I like some of the new nail polishes that dry to a much harder - chip resistant finish - talk about big bucks spent on product development !!) and warning about exploding pasta bowls that we should all heed and crack a smile!
The Doctor
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2001-09-26 23:00
If you can't find silver polishing cloth at a jewelry store, you may want to check out chain stores like Linens and Things or Bed Bath and Beyond.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-27 12:59
The Flitz I bought, in a tube, claimed to be useful on both silver and nickel. Nickel is far, far harder than silver and required a much more aggrressive abrasive. This particular Flitz sure was abrasive, would leave scratch marks on silver, and would have gone through siilver plating very quickly indeed.
Beware!
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-09-27 14:37
Just a thought here which may have no applicability to the polishing discussed. Some of the solutions available are amonia based (Never Dull is one and I seem to remember Brasso as another). I remember that when I was steam bending wood I read about an expert bender who used hot amonia under pressure to condition his wood for bending. It seems that the amonia will break down the cell walls in the wood fibers causing them to weaken enough to bend the whole structure. The heat and pressure serves to accelerate this effect.
I would be very careful not to get any of the polishing stuff which smells of amonia onto the wood of my clarinet. Without the heat and pressure the wood damage might be minimal... but isn't that too much however much it is?
I use and amonia containg polishing solution on silver plated saxaphones with no problem, the keys off of the clarinet should be no problem, but the bell ring? I have a C soprano silver sax I got recently which had springs "repaired" with rubber bands and then was packed away for 50 years. Under the rubber bands the plating is gone and there is sever pitting to to brass. What's the point? Rubber bands contain sulfides which destroy the plating and the base metal. Never leave a rubber band on your horn... never leave one in your case as it will promote general tarnishing of the keywork. It won't happen overnight, but will proceede at a glacial pace. Think about it, if a 3M strip will help prevent tarnish by outgassing in your case, you certainly can promote tarnishing by placing a sulfide source inside the case.
Have fun out there y'all, Terry
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-27 15:09
"Fuming wood with ammonia is a well-respected and old technique used by refinishers to darken fine wood evenly. It is just about foolproof - there's no blotching at all. The ammonia reacts with the tannins in the wood. It is not a superficial darkening, but on that goes a good 1/8th to 1/4" into the wood. There's no breakdown of any of the fibers or the refinishers wouldn't us e it on antique furniture."
From my baby brother who spent about 10 years as an antique furniture refinisher.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-09-29 15:50
But why polish at all? I much prefer unpolished keys. Polished ones are too slippery. My favorite feel is the totally unplated german silver keys on my 1928 Buffet.
Just my opinion.
Ken Shaw
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