 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-25 19:12
From time to time I've read posts about discoloration on the keys of new nickel plated R-13s, but never had a problem with any of the ones I've owned until now. I have an R-13 that is only 4 months old and the bell ring has turned yellow. Of course, it's still under warranty and I'm taking it to my dealer sometime soon--but I wonder how many of you have had such problems with these? Also, short of replacing the bell is there something that would clean this or is it a permanent thing?
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-09-25 20:14
Try Brasso. Harmless to the wood if you get a bit of it onto the wood and wipe it off quickly, and will remove the tarnish (also, if you've actually worn the nickel plating off completely and exposed the underlying copper or brass, this will at least shine up the discoloration, even if it doesn't remove it).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-25 23:07
I tried some stuff called "Never Dull" that my husband had around the house. It worked great. Easy to get the discoloration off the bell ring. No, it hasn't worn off any at all--and it didn't harm the wood one bit. It looks great! But, it is still warranteed in case something comes up.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-26 01:21
Dear Brenda,
We have had - although not recently, posts from time to time about your same problem with the discoloration (this ring is of different material because of the nature of the overlapping closure than the rest of the rings) - of the bell ring. (Search way back in the posts). Seems to be one of those things that the manufacturer must know about by now and has done nothing to correct the problem (tangible?) - it is a metalurgic problem that could be remedied with today's technology if someone would invest the time and money to research the situation.
Sounds like one of those hard questions that should be on the list for Clarinetfest 2002 (Showdown at the Clarinet Corral) - I would like to see this happen but it probably will not without support from the masses!
The Doctor
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 03:37
Uhhh --- I think I have seom of that "Never Dull" ... afraid it is damgerous stuff. At elast it was for me. The stuff I am thinking of is a like a very grey or silver fuzzy material, briilo like in some ways ... you pull a piece out of the can & use it to polish. it is hard on plated surfaces. it will clean tarnish very well, byut takes it';s t9oll quickly. John Butler may comment ... JB ?
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Author: Rob
Date: 2001-09-26 04:00
I've used Never-Dull, and yes, it does work well, but as I recall it had a very high ammonia content. If it's the stuff I think it is, it's really just cotton fiber batting in a roll that's been impregnated with some chemical whose name I can't recall. It may not have been ammonia specifically, but it sure smelled like it and so I only used it on keys that had been removed from the instrument. I have used plain ammonia to stain light colored wood furniture and while it wouldn't show on a clarinet, I shudder to think what kind of chemical reaction it would cause. Lately, I've been using MAAS metal polish, which has jeweler's rouge in it and I like the way it works much better than the Never-Dull; still though, never in contact with the wood or pads.
Has anyone heard anything bad about the MAAS stuff?
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 06:25
Rob, that is EXACTLY what I tried to describe. Cotton fibre whatnot that stinks to high heavens. mw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-26 13:08
The US Navy consumes Nevr-Dull at an amazing pace. I've seen brass that's been polished pretty much daily with Nevr-Dull for near 60 years that has lost none of the sharpness on the edges of stampings. I used to use it to get the gunk out of my guitar frets. Classic auto restorers, picky people at best, use this for shining up their cars.
The formulation is a trade secret (I checked the MSDS).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-26 14:18
You have to put something over the wood to be sure you don't get it on the wood. I used it very lightly and it polished the tarnish right off. Hopefully I won't use it again. Maybe there's something better around that is easier on things. However, my husband (as Mark mentioned above) is a very fussy car person and he says this is great stuff and won't damage the metal. Well, I'm not going to use it again on the bell ring since there seems to be some concern that it might be damaging.
Yes, Buffet should do something about this particular problem. It makes a relatively new instrument look like an old one.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 16:12
I have a local chemist that I have been working with on some projects. We've been looking at a lot of materials. He found a large can (hardly used can) of Never Dull amongst my supplies in my shop area & asked to take some. He confirmed what I was told when I first bought it. "Very powerful & use with caution". YES, Buffet should do something about situations where the plating loss to the underlying metal is happoening to so mnay people. The loss of plating on the Thumbring to the nickel-plated Buffet R-13's seems to be the most talked about. mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-26 16:57
The plating on the bell ring is in great shape, however it's the yellowish tint that suddenly appeared that has concerned me. I've never owned a clarinet that did that within a few short months. I'm not much fan of the nickel plated versions, but they're more available around here and most students are quite happy with them. I like the silver-plated. Have had less problems with them.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 20:25
Take a magnifying glass or something that will allow you to really VIEW the surface area. Concetrate on areas CLOSE together .... where some is yellow and some looks like the bell ring did originally. Look for spot where it crosses over. mw
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2001-09-27 12:17
I use Never-Dul on heavy corrosion, but for light discoloration the jewelry supply companies sell a yellow polishing cloth that works very well. Try Rio Grande http://www.riogrande.com/. I will post the product name when I get home.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-27 18:39
mw, it's too late to look under a magnifier--the tarnish has been removed. However, if it occurs again I will certainly do that before wiping it off. What are you thinking it might be? Perhaps one of those anti-tarnish strips in the case would work--however, I've never tried one on nickel-plated instruments before.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-27 20:48
Brenda, no. I wasn't thinking of looking at the tarnish per se. I was really just talking about examining the PROBLEM. That is, if it's yellow it could be some sort of discoloration of the top layer metal or it could be removal of the top to the underlying metal. It wasn't exactly clear to me _which_ had happened. If there is loss of the metal, I would be quick to contact Buffet (Francois Kloc). best, mw
ps I (am) starting to believe that our hard-rubber mouthpieces might be creating a problem for those of us with silver-plated keywork on our clarinets. Problem is that those of us who have expensive, valuable, or highly-valued mouthpieces like the protection & proximity that the clarinet case offers. I have several mouthpiece pouches -- problem is that mouthpiece life "outside the case" has it's own set of dangers for a mouthpiece, too.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-27 21:26
Ah, well it appeared to be just some kind of discoloration that quickly disappeared when cleaned with the now controversial "Never Dull." There doesn't appear to be any loss of the plating whatsoever--so that's good. I'm thinking perhaps there was some atmospheric influence inside the case and am experimenting with that situation.
As to mouthpiece pouches, I have a friend who has been working on designing some for me to keep my high-dollar mouthpieces in while inside the clarinet case or carried in the outside pouch (on my Bam case). She has designed some out of some padded, heavy-duty fabric that are really pretty nice. The tip of the mouthpiece fits down in the bottom of the little sack and a flap seals over the top. She's not happy with how they look just yet--but I'll let you know if we find something that works well and looks nice. Then we'll have to find someone who doesn't mind sitting around sewing stuff like that all day.
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2001-09-27 22:08
The polishing cloths I mentioned above from Rio Grande <www.riogrande.com> are called Sunshine Cloths. They also sell the 3M anti-tarnish strips.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-28 03:32
Spend a few hours away at the Atlanta Clarinet Association meeting and all sorts of good chemical fodder comes along!
About some of the earlier posts about using ammonia to treat wood - bend it, transform the darkness or hue - yes, I did my time in the restoration workshop earning a few bucks for school. Antique wood furniture and clarinets are apples and oranges. There are several forms of oxidation and hydrolysis of plant derived lipids (oils) and among the most common are acid and alkaline hydrolysis of the bonds (chemical energy holding molecules together) of lipid fatty acid side chains. Ammonia is a very strong hydrolysis agent and IMHO should not be used on clarinet wood. On antique wood surfaces you are not concerned (other than gross wood decomposition) about the hydrolysis of oils in the wood because your final task is to seal the wood and develop a durable coating on the surface.
The whole deal about tarnish is very complicated with the many urban air pollution compounds that we have surrounding us all the time. I like the earlier analogy of the glacial effect - same end product by the speed in development is powerfully slow. Sulphur compounds and sulphur containing volatile organic compounds are the prime visible culprits but other compounds that are gasoline and desel engine combustion by-products, sister and daughter (sorry women this is how we refer to them) interaction products, etc. also interact with the highly reactive electrochemistry of silver and nickel. Brenda - you probably missed an old post of mine about my own mouthpiece holder (it drew some interesting comments about my AR demenor) - but once again -- I have a padded (all natural cotton batting) silk mouthpiece bag with an impermeable membrane to stop outgasing of rubber vulcanizing agents or influx of air pollutants with a double fold over velcro closure. Inside the bag are compartments for dessicant (to keep RH low and inhibit mold and mildew growth - you make it airtight and it becomes and incubator) and a packet of the experimental pollution grabber formulation which removes classes of volatile organic sulphur containing and other tarnish promoting compounds) -- talk about overkill !!
So anyway, I have done quite a bit of homework on silver polishing cloths (some posts back) but I guess that I can not convince people to go with the well established companies that make cloths for fine silverware that have centuries old reputations. You really need to know that the cloth that you use is not abrading the plating - scratches that are almost invisible to the naked eye from some cloths can seriously remove alot of plating if used often. The best advice is to stop the tarnish before you have to remove it - tarnish is a silver or nickel compound and when you remove it your are removing silver or nickel that was part of the plating! My advice - YMMV and IMHO - is to wipe down the clarinet after use with a soft cloth (I use silk-high denier polyester or microfiber are probably fine too), put it in your case which contains a sacrificial source (the silver storage bags have colloidal silver impregnated into the cloth or a pure mossy nickel bar - tarnish compounds attack it as they would your plating), a 3M current tarnish strip, keep it sealed unless you are actually playing, and tarnish should be rare. I have some other tricks but they would draw too much laughter from the real world!
The Doctor
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