 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-22 14:46
In "Routine Check-up," part of what I wrote was:
"Within this year, a couple of repair people told me that in overhauling a wooden instrument it is no longer "acceptable practice" to oil it.
When I argued the point with one of them he told me that the "new general consensus" was that the wood is so hard that it doesn't really soak in the oil within the time allotted for it to do so, anyway.
I still don't agree with that and insist my wooden instruments be oiled."
Without mentioning any names, I'll say that the two people who said this to me are considered excellent technicians, so much so, that it surprised me to hear it from them.
Since I'm no expert, I'd like to hear some other opinions on the subject.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-09-22 15:01
There has been quite a bit of discussion on this, but it generally did not focus on the practice of total immersion vs. surface-applied oil. Total immersion was the practice you remembered seeing and mentioned in your earlier thread.
Of course, it may be appropriate to distinguish between relatively new instruments and those that are 20-100 yrs old. For myself, I'm afraid that I've been given so much information that I'm undecided.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-09-22 15:23
I have never oiled the bore of any of my twelve wooden clarinets and have experianced zero problems as a result. No cracking, warping, etc. Selmers, Yamahas and LeBlancs.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-09-22 15:41
Peter,
FWIW that Evette I have that went 29 years before repair probably got oiled twice a year. It lived in the Los Angeles area and oiling meant about 1/2 hour of swabbing with an oil soaked linnen swab and also rubbing down the exterior with the same swab, working the oil everywhere except the tennon corks. I always spent extra time on the grain end of the tennons and mortises to make sure they got as much oil as they could take. I used commercial "bore oil". I understand that there are better oils. I suspect that the oil getting onto the original Buffet pads is what shortened the life of a few of them to 29 years.
My repair lady at WW&BW currently soaks for about a week, she does a detergent wash first. I don't know what oil she uses. I have treated all 5 wooden horns I have the same way and except for the pre-existing crack in the FB bell there have been no problems with cracking.
I am not a repair person, like you I am an engineer (well was) but do have reasonable manual dexterity as I earn a living as a dentist.
Your idea of a tube to submerge the horn parts under pressurized oil sure sounds good. It would be easy to make one with a little PVC tubing , a cemented end cap and a cemented threaded end cap. Then drill one end and thread in a schrader valve and stem..... less than $10. Of course if it is decided that oiling is not the way to go you wouldn't need something like this. I bet pressure oiling for a week or two is probably going to be better than just soaking for a week.... Don't forget you may need to replace the corks after this treatment/abuse.
I do hope that some materials engineers, or very knowledgable repair techs will put an oar in and tell us what experience or research reveals about long term grenadilla preservation with respect to the oiling question.
Terry
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-22 16:48
Here's another oar. This shouldn't be as complicated as rocket science here. Basically, we all have to remember that wood is wood. Doesn't matter what the application is, it's still just wood. If you leave the wood siding on your house alone for years, it will crack check etc. Same with a boat or whatever. If you put new beams into a house (as I'm currently remodeling) they will somewhat crack as they dry out. They concensus is to get a good coat of penetrating oil on it ASAP. So, apply this to a clarinet. Albeit, the clarinet (hopefully) doesn't go through the "abuse, UV radiation etc" that a house or other wood products do. If it isn't oiled, and is allowed to dry out, it will "eventually" crack. Since the environment that a clarinet is supposed to live in is pretty benign compared to a house exterior, and the wood density of a clarinet is greater, it most likely can take years (scores) before problems show up. As wood slowly dries out, different parts of the wood will "move" differently (at the molecular level) since the porosity of the wood is not the same throughout. Over the years it will probably be fine until the last straw when the clarinet earthquake (clarinetquake) appears and you have a crack. My rule of thumb is put a drop of oil in the bore just inside the tenon (at the endgrain) for about 20 minutes. The end grain will dry out first. If it soaks in, give it an oiling. If it's still there, wipe it off and play. Get familiar with how the bore looks as you sight through it. If it starts to dry out, the grain structure will open up and should be visible as with any wood type. As we all know, different (weather) environments will affect how fast wood (a clarinet) will dry out. We just have to remember that wood is just wood and should be treated as such no matter the application. Personally, I would not do pressure oiling. Let's just say that with this process, a void inside the wood structure exists. This would be a "great" place for a crack to start. If the void was filled with oil, and we all know liquid is not compressable (for all practical purposes), the oil would force wood around the void to "move" and exacerbate the potential for a "crack" during it's movement process.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-22 19:47
Dear Folks,
You are probably tired of hearing my same story but there are new participants on the BB all the time - like new students in college chemistry classes, that need to be educated and challenged not to accept products for their instruments that are not based on the most recent scientific research and good practice by the repair community. I will let the repair community speak for themselves about their practices and experience with oiling wood.
Mark M. made an excellent point that these instruments are made of wood - a natural product. A second added point might be that the instrument manufacturers impregnate the wood with natural plant oils by various means and for differing lengths of time prior to manufacture.
I do not know what repair persons you have talked with, but I am in contact with many of the acknowledged master woodwind repair persons and shops in the U.S. and in many other countries and they, almost universally, use plant derived oil formulations on instruments brought in for rehabilitation or overhaul. Their literature has many scientific references to research by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forestry Products Centers on the use of wood preservatives and the results of scientific investigations on wood decay, cracking, and structural alteration.
My own research over the past twenty years, consultations with wood and fiber conservators at museums worldwide, research in many literatuare sources, conversations with caretakers with the task of preserving historical and religious wooden artifacts in centuries old cathedrals, chemical archiologists who analyze wood and fiber relics, etc. -- bring out common threads of plant oils, waxes, and types of products which have been successfully used to preserve wood over the centuries.
A lot of the myth and folklore about oiling or not oiling wood is based on the use of improper oils or the wrong formulation of oil mixtures. Many old myths say that oil will not penetrate the surface of grenadilla wood. If the proper oils and natural emulsifiers are used the oil will penetrate wood deeply - either new wood or wood from older clarinets. I have photo-micrographs of cross sections of both types of wood with fluorescent tags attached to oil molecules which "indicate - show if you will" that the oil has penetrated several millimeters into the wood within a several hour exposure to the surface of the wood.
Plant oils at the surface of wood can be washed away by moisture and swabbing, oxidation of the oils and subsequent formation of end products that are easily removed from the wood surface, migration of oils in wood to the innermost core of the wood leading to a depletion in certain other areas of the wood, etc. can lead to wood that is more prone to environmental insults and potential cracking than wood with the proper oil content. I suggest that these oils be replentished with a scientific mixture of plant derived oils, plant antioxidant chemicals, and (IMHO) natural plant derived emulsifiers which insure the blending of the oils so that they do not separate upon migration into the wood.
At recent times we have also discussed the unique qualities of plant oils to maintain moisture control within wood so I won't go into that here.
Again, there are various opinions in the community on oiling wood (we have these discussions three or four times per year) and you should assess the available literature, discuss it with knowledgable repair persons -- then make up your own mind! I hope that I do not indicate that I know all the answers, because the natural systems of plants are constantly under renewed research studies and new mechanisms and chemical interactions of plant sytems and plant oils are constantly being discovered. Knowledge and new practices of wood care and treatment are an evolving project, and hopefully they will produce improved and better products for the community to use on their wood instruments.
The Doctor
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-22 20:49
Hey Terry:
The apparatus I saw in NY all those years ago was a factory made thing, with a small, industrial quality hand-pump at one end and, I forgot to mention before, a small pressure guage. If I remember correctly, the oil was kept just on the warm side (if you touched it it felt about "luke-warm") and the pressure was no more than a couple of psi. So the pressure and the heat were only very slight.
I was a half-grown pup then and I am 50 now, so while I remember it, it is not crystal clear.
Hey Mark:
While I agree that wood clarinets are built out of a natural product, I don't agree that "wood is wood" just as fruit is not just fruit, or metal is not just metal.
There are many "specialized-use" woods, like grenadilla, ebony and teak, to name a few, that require very specialized care. You would probably not build a house out of one of those woods, and I doubt you would build a clarinet out of white pine, cedar or spruce!
I hope that's your own house you are rebuilding!
Hey Doctor:
I think you pretty much convinced me to continue to oil, although I'll keep checking this thread to see who else comes up with what.
We still haven't heard from mw, Gordon, Dee, Anji and Mark Charette. Come on guys, add your two cents!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-22 21:18
Just an addendum - one should follow the manufacturer's reccommendations for the use of oil - Buffet I believe says not to use oil on the wood. When pressed, they only state president (history) as the reason (not all bad I guess but not very satisfying to the scientist) - nothing scientific. Indeed, I had the opportunity to do an analysis on a less than 1 year old wood clarinet by a famous manufacturer (that had cracked badly) and the fluorescently tagged oil that I applied mixed with oil already present and was prettly evenly distributed through the top 3 millimeters of the wood with oil already present. Older wood is a different story and the concentration of added oil was much greater in the surface 3 millimeters of wood.
Just wondering though - do the manufacturer's reccommendations hold after the warranty period? So far I can not get a clarification from them! Perhaps someone from the manufacturing end would like to comment? They have never done so in a public forum, to my knowledge, before but there is alway hope.
The Doctor
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-22 21:54
Hey Peter,
Yeah it is my own house I'm doing and it's being done right. That's why I'm doing it. And no I don't think I'd build a clarinet out of the woods you mention for obvioius reasons. However, wood is still wood albeit different varieties exist as does for fruit and metals. They all have different grain structures and other properties that require their own proper maintenance over time or they will fail. And yeah I would build a house out of teak or others if it was affordable. Having owned numerous yachts of the 50' variety, I have worked with teak/other woods many times and have had the same types of conversations with the marine industry many times and over my 48 yrs of life here, I've been able to look at different wooden products age over the years and know how they've been taken care of. Bottom line is that wood will dry out over time. Different woods will dry out over different times in different environmental conditions. My supposition is that clarinet mfgrs that impregnate their wood are just protecting their warranty at a decent price. As the instrument ages, it will need oil. As to the type of oil????? I'll leave that up to the doc. And I think he makes sense. I'll probably get some.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-22 22:19
Peter wrote:
>
> ... We still haven't heard from mw, Gordon, Dee, Anji and Mark
> Charette. Come on guys, add your two cents!
Don't really have much of an opinion on whether clarinets should or should not be oiled. However here is what I do. If the surface starts to look like it might be drying out, I oil them. This generally results in about two oilings a year. Keep in mind that the newest wooden instrument that I own is approximately 45 years old.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-22 22:22
On the other hand, I should add that they also spent 20 years in storage without ever being oiled. So it's hard to say what's best.
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-22 22:32
My horns are also older and some have been stored for years. That's why I use the method I described in my first post.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-22 23:24
I am silent because I am no expert.
My own clarinet gets played in cold/hot pits for shows - 4 to 5 'seasons' per year, and rarely played between these seasons. It is a Yamaha and I don't oil it - partly from laziness, partly because lack of agreement within the industry an what is required, and after working on so many other peoples' instruments I really never feel like facing the attention needs of my own until they yell at me.
However when my customers seek bore oiling I use the oil from Doctor's Products simply because I am convinced that Omar has done more conscientious research for us on this topic than anybody else I am aware of.
I do believe that manufacturers are simply taking the easy options. Definitive recommendations are scarce indeed, probably because if they are made and followed long term manufacturers' responsibility for any cracks would seem to increase.
They seem to have left it completely to the likes of Omar to take the appropriate scientific approach that this topic deserves.
Buffet's advise pertains only to new instruments and would seem, along with their treatment during manufacturer, to be their choice of cheapest way to get them through a guarantee period. Otherwise they would publicise their difinitive recommendation LONG term.
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-23 00:40
And here's another thought. Over the last several (perhaps as much as 10?) years, the lumber industry is harvesting younger and younger trees. I would bet that is also true of the musical instrument/grenadilla industry since grenadilla, as I understand, is becoming more scarce. Thus, the introduction of the mixture of grenadilla "dust"/resin for some new horns. For newer trees, the grain structure is not as tight and would be more prone to cracking. If you take the wood out of the center of a 100 yr old tree, the grain will be much tighter than if you take the wood out of the center of a ten yr old tree. Perhaps this is why the mfgrs are impregnating their horns with oil???
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-23 01:59
Mark,
That is correct, the other day I wrote some about that precisely and you can actually feel the difference in the density of the wood while holding it in your hand.
That is also why, I too have old clarinets which I've kept in good condition and so many newer instruments are prone to develop cracks, even if the owner takes reasonable care of them.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-23 02:03
Dear Mark M and all,
All of the major manufacturers have historically impregnated their wood with oil before manufacturing (by retrospective analysis it seems that they have changed the formulation of oils that they now use too). The major manufacturers are using younger wood, and wood that has not aged and stabilized as long as it used to be aged. Some are also using pressure treatment with the oil whereas it used to soak in vats for long periods of time. Pressure treatment in itself is not bad but the parameters of time, temperature and pressure must be carefully controlled. This is food for further investigation, but I am not sure that you can achieve the same degree of penetration in very dense wood such as grenadilla that you can in other woods where pressure treatment is common for exterior use. I am not saying that newer techniques are better or worse than the old methods. (I just do not know if they have researched and considered the long term consequences of their new treatments and procedures - other than reduction in cost and their liability during the warranty period!!!)
The advent of computerized milling and drilling machines certainly has added to the reproducibility of woodwind production and probably the quality of the finished product. I do feel that you are right about the grain structure of the younger wood now used. You just have to look at spacing of pores, channels, and filler structure (under a microscope) to see that the newer clarinets - even the high priced models - have a more open grain structure, - an easy test is to weigh a blank. The more open grain structure wood weighs less than more compact, denser grained wood (of the same moisture content). I guess that I would rather own clarinets than sailboats - I've owned both and both are very expensive hobbies - sailboats probably more so!.
The Doctor
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-23 02:09
BTW, thank you all for your input, though apparently indecisive, not so in reality.
It helped me decide to continue to oil periodically and soak at overhaul time.
All my clarinets are way past warranty anyway.
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-23 05:17
I've also notice the difference in weight between my two Bb horns. I'm a selmer series 10 guy (not 10G et al) and in my search for a new "a" horn, I bought the "matched" pair of series 10 advertised on Sneezy classifieds some weeks back. Both of these horns have been in storage in LA (state) for years so they have not had the opportunity to dry out. I've compared the two Bbs just by feel and the newly acquired on is definitely heavier. I had both horns overhauled and the tech could not believe how tight the grain structure was for both. Looking down the bore(s) was very smooth with no open grain. My "a" that I have been using is a selmer made in 1927 and was Ron Phillips horn in the Seattle Symphony. I compared this with the series 10"a" and the series 10 was definitely heavier and has a much better grain structure. The older horn does need some oil at this time. What would be interesting is to adapt a moisture meter that is used in the marine/construction industry to measure oil/moisture content in a clarinet. To borrow a phrase from the marine industry, "we know how long wood lasts. Forever. if properly cared for as it's been around about that long. We don't know how long composite structures last."
Hey doc. Can you send me an e-mail on how to acquire some oil?
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-09-23 05:42
Hey Doc,
When are you going to start taking credit cards on your website? I tried to order some oil a while ago, but your site wasn't taking credit cards.
David Kinder
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-23 14:15
Just a couple of points:
I'm not sure how one can realistically ascertain grain closeness by looking down the bore of an instrument. One probably sees only smoothness of finish, i.e. mainly degree of reflection of light.
For what It's worth, one of the world's top recorder (blockflute) makers once told me that recorders saturated in oil were very heavy and had an inferior tone.
If we attribute good tone as a quality emanating from the structure of grenadilla, then why fill up the pores and totally change the structure? Any use of pore blocker should surely be carefully controlled. I believe Doc's oil is claimed not to block pores. Do manufacturers aim to block pores?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-23 17:27
Alas I thought that we had gracefully exited this round of give and take on oiling - but Gordon brings up another good point. I wish that I had listened to Aristotle's advice early in life - "everything in moderation" and it would have saved me many trials and tribulations of the youthful - "if a little bit is good then a lot has to be great" mentality. Oil should be applied sparingly and infrequently depending on your particular horn's needs and the environmental conditions where you are using it. I like the tip about putting a small drop of oil on the end of the tenon and if it stays there for more than a minute then you do not need oil (this is of course if you have not clogged all the pores already with other preparations - see below). If it completely soaks in (I am only speaking about my own oil here - YMMV with other formulations) you should consider oiling the wood.
Now pores and channels - these are the arteries, veins, and capillaries of the wood. The hydrostatic pressures within the wood are controlled by the transport (passive in harvested wood rather than active transport in live trees) of moisture and the distribution of moisture by these pores and channels. The architecture of the wood is such that the pores - actually for the most part the ends of cut channels, are the main interface with the exterior environment and they maintain an equilibrium of the moisture content of the rest of the core wood and the surface. When we clog these pores with wax, bore oil that polymerizes to form plugs, or petroleum based oils that deteriorate the channel structure causing them to collapse and close the channels - then we can create tremendous local hydrostatic pressures in certain areas of the wood where water equilibrium cannot be maintained. These increased hydrostatic pressures and weak points in the wood structure itself can potentially lead to cracks.
Part of the purpose of using plant oils that are designed by Nature to interact with water molecules at the surface of the oil droplet, is that they too act in the moisture distribution process with the core wood and special areas surrounding the channels which are designed to allow the transfer of moisture from these plant oils to the open channels for moisture equilibration. The right plant oils will not polymerize and if supplemented with plant derived antioxidants they will not oxidize or turn rancid (the volitile end products of oxidation of oils) Guys and Gals -it is a lot more complicated than this but you are probably already bored silly by this explanation.
You do not want to waterproof your bore or your outside surface. Actually most plant waxes and some synthetic waxes allow water vapor (not droplet size) transfer through the overlapping plate structure of the waxes.
So what does this mean? I would not use polymerizing oils (tung, linseed, etc.), or petroleum based (mineral oil) on my own wood. The choice is up to you in the end. Just had a "stick it to" thought ---- if the instrument manufacturers do not reccommend oiling the wood (at least in the warranty period) then why do they sell bore oil under their name brand and why would they sell you mineral oil - baby oil - to use as bore oil?
The Doctor
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-23 17:35
Gordon,
Doubtful that they do, if that were to be the case.
But for instance, I was just looking at a grenadilla alto that I'm going to purchase as soon as the seller (a repair person friend of mine) puts it in playing condition.
I looked at the inside of the top joint and next to the register hole there is what looks like a minute split.
After careful consideration, he thought it was part of the grain structure, that the wood was probably very dry. Sure enough, we put oil on it and it soaked it up like a sponge.
I would venture to say that this particular wood has to be well oiled, or the grain is just going to continue opening like that and it will begin to soak in moisture from our dire ambient humidity to replace the oil it does not have.
Or no?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-23 19:55
Hey Doc,
Sorry, I seem to have missed your last contribution somehow.
I think your knowledge of the subject is vast and I am not bored in the least by your scientific explanations. Listening to people with specific knowledge, or at least educated opinions is how we learn about most useful things in life.
I would like to know more about your products. If you have a catalog or a web page I would like either to receive one or know how to find you on the web so I can view your products. If you are only marketing the particular oil you recommend for wooden instrument maintenance, I would like to know how to order some.
Probably, I will still have my wooden instruments oiled professionally, but, in the future, I will start supplying the oil I want used on them. That should not be a problem, as the people who work on them are also friends.
The place to start will be that alto that's coming at me next week, so please let me know.
Thank you.
Peter
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Author: jmcaulay
Date: 2001-09-24 07:14
The Doctor says, in part:
"...I am in contact with many of the acknowledged master woodwind repair persons and shops in the U.S. and in many other countries and they, almost universally, use plant derived oil formulations on instruments brought in for rehabilitation or overhaul."
Mark M says, also in part:
"Basically, we all have to remember that wood is wood. Doesn't matter what the application is, it's still just wood. If you leave the wood siding on your house alone for years, it will crack check etc. Same with a boat or whatever. If you put new beams into a house (as I'm currently remodeling) they will somewhat crack as they dry out. They concensus is to get a good coat of penetrating oil on it ASAP. So, apply this to a clarinet"
And Gordon (NZ) tells us, among other things:
"For what It's worth, one of the world's top recorder (blockflute) makers once told me that recorders saturated in oil were very heavy and had an inferior tone." He then questions:
"If we attribute good tone as a quality emanating from the structure of grenadilla, then why fill up the pores and totally change the structure? Any use of pore blocker should surely be carefully controlled. I believe Doc's oil is claimed not to block pores. Do manufacturers aim to block pores?"
I used to be quite an intent clarinet player. Then I went forth to make "the big bucks" (ha!), and recently I'm getting back into the clarinet. Once upon a time, I was too stupid to know much about oiling clarinets, so I just used some good quality olive oil when the instrument looked like it needed it (?), which was about every year or so (and seems to have been in the autumn). I used a swab and rag to do it, and the instrument lasted at least twelve years with no problems, but now I'm a bit surprised it didn't smell rancid after some time. Now that I'm getting back into playing the clarinet, the topic is of great interest to me.
If "wood is wood," then the best protection might be a good grade of Porch and Deck Enamel. This, however, seems somehow totally counter-intuitive. That is, until I look at a recorder I own, a Moeck. Sure enough, it has some sort of lacquer/shellac/whatever on the exterior of a quite lightweight wood which seems well-cured. The bore seems not to have been so treated. It is very obviously not saturated with any sort of oil; in fact, the instrument's wood appears quite dry. Examination of another recorder, a lower-pitched one which was made in the DDR, shows similar treatment of similar wood.
And so far as blocking the pores might go, the Buffet "Green" clarinet does quite well, to many at least, against the lore of wood surfaces producing such a wonderful sound. It would appear that the sound of the "Green" instrument is virtually indistinguishable from "real 100% wood," yet it is substantially a composition material loaded with wood particles. I presume that periodic oiling (or other treatment) would be pretty much out of the question with one of these.
A comment was made to me by an individual who has been in the furniture business for about 40 years: "No furniture manufacturer with any sense recommends oil. They all suggest wax. Oil picks up a great amount of dirt, and each time you oil it, more and more dirt gets in the pores. Wax it, not often, and don't worry about it." Anyone know of *waxing* a clarinet? Might those *extremely* long-chain molecules really do wood more good than the somewhat shorter ones?
And finally, I have never heard of a clarinet that cracked from the inside out. Seems as if all the cracks that exist started on the outside of the instrument. Considering the shape of the tube and the stress relief that might occur through cracking, this sure sounds reasonable. Yet people seem to be more concerned about oiling the inside of the instrument. I have known players who swabbed their instruments out with oil very often, maybe even weekly (I'm not certain), yet hardly ever put a single drop of oil on the outside surfaces. This does not seem like the way to do it. Or am I missing something?
Regards,
John
who sorta wishes he'd just stuck with the olive oil
and who definitely wishes he'd been playing all these years
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-24 13:32
Dear Folks,
I have been bombarded with EMails with specific questions so I thought that I would share some common threads in these questions and my responses.
Generally in older clarinets I see pores or channels that are clogged by either of two proccesses. The first is the use of some polymerized agent (varnish, linseed oil, tung oil, etc.) or partially polymerized oils of various types and some matrix forming agent (either dust, dirt, case cloth fuzz, swab fuzz, etc.. The second is just dirt or biolgical detritis, fuzz, with a smaller amount of internal oil or added oil forming a plug.
Someone asked what furniture refinishing history had to do with this whole story and it is primarily the removal of old finishes without harming the wood and removing too much of the natural oils from the wood in the process. (I dont't know how many of you have had furniture finsishes removed by the commercial hot dip process but what you get back is a cleaned, dry piece of lifeless balsa wood). Fine antiques require extraordinary measures, treatments, and formulations. Early on I developed organic solvent mixtures that would soften and remove most of the type 1 clogs (this was not a commercial endeavor but one to learn about the process and analyzed the types of oils used on the orginial instrument for use in compatibility studies with my own oil mixtures) The second type of pore clog can be pretty well removed by a mixture of chemical detergents in a water solution. Both of the processes are not DIYS and attempts can cause more harm than good to the wood. I will not provide formulation information because it is too dangerous in a household situtation to use organic solvents and in the second case it requires experience to properly use the detergents.
The other questions dealt with whether the above processes were necessary on older instruments. Only your repair person should answer that question. I do not want a union card myself and leave those decisions to the most qualified people. I have performed these services for clients in the business but only as a favor and not a paid service job.
Is pressure oil treating better than soaking, better than surface application. Yes, maybe, possibly. Again without the proper setup, equipment, materials and knowledge, --- pressure treatment is not a DIYS project. As I referred to in an earlier post - parameters of time, temperature, pressure, and oil have to be carefully controlled in the process. Simply using more pressure may be more harmful than useful in the process - what works for pine does not work for grenadilla wood!
Soaking at controlled room termperatures for some period of time is probably better than surface application of oil alone. Again, one must know that the oil used is compatible with the types of oil used in the original manufacture, that pores have been opened to the extent possible, and that the oil used will not itself cause problems later in life of the instrument or change the resonant qualities significantly.
Suface treatment - I do both outside and inside myself - will replentish the oil balance of the wood and also aid in the distribution of moisture throughout the wood. Why do cracks ususally form on the surface? - I've seen a lot of both kinds - internal and external - but one could speculate that the moisture distribution was greatest on the internal surfaces while the surface had less water content and this causes external cracks. Cracks are a complicated phenomenon and simple explanations probably are not satisfactory to explain the complex series of events leading to the "crackquake".
The Doctor
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-09-24 15:21
Doc, It was a pleasure to meet you at Clarinetfest, and also I've been enjoying your vast knowledge on this subject.
One question comes to mind: What type of wood oil do the major manufacturers (or just Buffet - if you know) use when they initially build their clarinets? Also, why is it not available to the general public...Interested in your thoughts...GBK
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-09-24 15:41
Dear GBK,
I have agreed not to reveal the formulation (this is not sinister or secret however) I got this information from my own analaysis of oils extracted from various clarinets but needed confirmation by the manufacturer. The oils used to initially soak the wood are plant derived oils. I do not know why the manufacturers do not offer the same oil as a care product under their brand name. Most, if not all bore oil offered under branded names is 95-100% light mineral oil. If one were to take the economic, profit model, then the profit on light mineral oil sold as bore oil is >5000%, on a specific plant derived oil formulation with antioxidants and emulsifiers (my own experience only) it <100% at comparable prices per milliliter.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-25 17:01
These conversations always seem to end up with an accountant lurking somewhere!
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2001-09-25 19:13
Okay.... Since we're talking about stuff to put on wood, Does anyone know why Grenadilla is stained black instead of leaving it brown? And what's in this stain? Does it plug up pores etc?
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-26 03:49
Gordon, none of the CPA's have check in on this Thread. Omar's not an accountant, he's far more dangerous & cunning. He's a business owner trying to find profits in all of his (& potential) products. best, mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-26 15:54
mw I think I have been misunderstood.
The accountant is responsible for a marketing choice based on >5000% profit.
Omar's enterprise, with relatively huge R&D and <100% profit must be a hobby or close to a work of love.
What I meant was that behind every product that is both deceiving and ripping off the buyer is an accountant that has steered a business in this direction. Don't take it personally, anybody. Luv ya all! (I do my own accountancy)
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