 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TRS
Date: 2001-09-18 22:43
I'm a clarinetist and I'm going on playing for my 4th year. I have recently been diagnosed with a depressive disorder. My teacher also has them same disorder, and we talk about it alot. I was wondering if musicians are more likely to become or be depressive. Thanks
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-09-18 23:33
TRS---it doesn't have to do with the profession, or field one person is in. It has more to do with how you handle stress, but also biochemical and physiological factors too. THere are so many different things that can contribute that you can't know for sure. The best advice I can give is to follow that of your doctor...ALso, mostly learn how to budget your time so you spend some on music but also on other things. A lot of people get depressed if they are focused so heavily on just one thing. Also, unless you are in major depression (which I am assuming you are not because you posted here), simply reevaluate your life and your priorities. It's not easy to do, but it is absolutely necessary for your well-being. This is the first step.
Good luck!
Julia
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-09-19 01:08
Depression is not necessarily always the diagnosable kind. I don't see a correlation of depression with musicians at all. Some get it, some don't, I guess.
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-09-19 01:17
Well, I don't really know of any links to music, but I'm and bass clarinet player and I’m depressed a lot. But there are a lot of reasons for that. Some I know of and some I don't. It’s just really the person. My best friend turns to music for sanity. If I hear a lot of depressing classical music I do tend to go into a stage of depression. Bach Come, Sweet Death is a really depressing but good song. Don’t know if this helps you or not.
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Author: Carmen Izzo
Date: 2001-09-19 02:29
all i can say that as musicians, we can be prone to more emotions, due to the fact that the center of our lives (music) is so intense sometimes, and noticeably, music can sway or create emotions
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-09-19 15:00
I always feel a bit depressed after I play a concert or gig, almost like a musical 'post-partum' depression thing. But it goes away after a day or so. I suspect that it's the nature of the beast --- musicians, being creative artists (hopefully!) tend to be emotional and somewhat sensitive by nature, so temporary depression would not be unexpected.
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Author: Richard Wessler
Date: 2001-09-19 15:17
There is no evidence linking depression with musicians, artists or other creative types. An expert in this field is JudithSchlesinger@compuserve.com. She has researched and written about this (currently has book in the works). She is a musician and would probably reply to questions from you.
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Author: Lisa Chien
Date: 2001-09-19 20:07
I used to be musician and I have many musician friends and I would say we are more depressed than my other friends.
One friend is a classically trained pianist who composes. He is moderately famous within a small circle. Because he does not make enough money with his music his "main" job is in the financial business. He constantly questions his self worth. Often he has said, "I don't know if I'll do another CD because they are so expensive to make. And I don't know if anyone really cares." I would call his music "Neo-Romantic" and with colors similar to Debussy. If we were to teleport his back to 1840 in Europe he would be immensly successful, however in this world of pop music his tonal music puts the average Joe to sleep. His self worth is linked to two things: how the public receives his music and his ability to make money from his music. Consequently his basic temperment is one of depression; on extremly rare occasions he will laugh.
I have another friend who used to be moderately famous, again within a small musical circle. He wrote orchestral works with a Straus-like quality. After writing many pieces of string, and wind ensembles, he decided not to continue because he could not pay his rent. Now he works as an investment banker making much better money. He is also depressed. He hides his sadness by buying new toys. But he would really prefer to compose on his Steinway grand piano which has sat idle for four years.
Last week I was at a party with many music students. Last May they had all finished their final exams and finished their final music performances for their degrees. One would think they would be happy to be finished with school. Yet the mood was somber because many of these truly fine music students had not landed that orchestra job and were beginning to think that they would have to teach as a career. Imagine, you have just finished 4 years of classical music training at an esteemed conservatory, your music skills are sharper than than ever, you've sent tapes of yourself to dozens of orchestras world wide, you've auditioned for many of these positions but you haven't landed a job. Now your begging for that part-time job as a music teacher. Talk about a step down. Yet many of my friends, especially basoonists, oboists and a some clarinetists are doing exactly that.
Musicians thrive on the attention, the adulation of the audience. In the field of classical music which is certainly not booming, it is hard enough to get that praise from within the community and even harder to get respect from those outside the field.
After receiving my master's in clarinet performance, I spent two years doing gigs with pick-up orchestras. I found it very difficult to earn enough money to live with dignity so I switched careers and now sell real estate. I have sufficent money to live comfortably, save money in the bank, put money in 401k and travel four times a year. When I was making a living playing my clarinet, I was always in a state of depression because I felt the world did not appreciate clarinetists. When I go to the music store there are always bands looking for guitar players but never a wind quintet looking for a clarinetist. It took me months to get together a group of 3 pro quality wind players and a pianist to form a wind quintet. Now I am not so depressed because I feel like I am comfortable and my future is also being taken care of.
Many of my older, former musician friends, have made similar leaps from music to more lucrative fields. Again for each of them it wasn't about making loads of money, rather they did not like feeling as if their years of training were not sufficient to earn enough money to live life comfortably. At a certain age you want to be able to to to a restaurant and not order the cheapest thing on the menu and insist that everyone calculate his or her portion of the bill. There is a certain peace of mind in saying, "Just split it four ways." Many of these friends and I now play music purely for pleasure, in our little wind quintet. And they tell me constantly that they are now much happier with their lives.
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-09-19 21:12
That made me depressed to read. I refuse to give up my dream of playing professionally, even if I spend my whole life auditioning for orchestras and die trying. I currently work part-time so I can practice 4 hours a day, which means I live on about $900 a month. But I am rich with idealism. Yes, I sometimes struggle with depression related to self-doubt about my future in music, but then, I would be even more depressed if I gave up my only real dream for this life. I will only live once.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-09-19 21:46
Lisa,
Wonderful posting ---- although not cheery, I think you hit reality squarely on the head.
Suzanne,
I wish you all the best of luck, and hope you achieve your dream. But consider this: Perhaps you alone can live the way you are, but should you ever choose to have a family, you will have to face the reality Lisa describes. Those hungry little faces at the dinner table, unfortunately, don't care a whit about the ephemeral world of classical music.
But then again, maybe I'm just sour because I know that, had I attempted to make a living at playing music, I don't have the talent to be successful. Perhaps you've got what it takes and will make it ------ hope so! But please, for your own sake, have a "fallback plan" --- the world is not always accommodating of your aspirations. And as we've seen so horribly last week, the world is changing, maybe in a grim way.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-20 02:32
This is probably besides the point, but Lisa is absolutely right.
I chose engineering, but I watched many friends try to become various types of artists and starve, for all their training and effort.
I have seen people who were not as good as others get positions because they either knew somebody, "hit" it off with somebody or someone had prejudices which kept the better person from getting the work. Up to and including donations from "daddy" to the of support the arts.
I've been happy as an engineer. I can't complain. I've had no problem with it. I play my music "on the side" and I don't have to worry about if I can make money at it or not, or if anyone appreciates my music or not. That has been the best way for me.
Someone once told me that when you really to do love something, you should not do it for a living, because, most often, once it becomes "work" it is no longer fun to do, anyway. That is also partially true.
One of the few people I really like as a friend works at a music store during the day, and tries to play gigs in the evening every chance he gets. He happens to be one of the best alto and soprano sax players I've met. He also plays a mean flute. He used to be a member of a U.S. Army band many years ago, he is about 40+ years old now and has hardly been able to work as a real musician since.
He is now a single dad to a six year-old son whom he can't take care of on what he would earn as a full-time musician in South Florida, and has nobody he could really leave him with to pursue a life playing jazz, etc. even if he wanted to leave him around, which he doesn't.
Another friend of ours just went to New York to play two hours a night on a cruise ship, and even though the "group" will be playing with is recorded on a CD, he considers himself lucky to have a job. At least he will have all the hours he wants to practice every day.
There are places in South Florida that don't pay musicians; there are places in South Florida that pay musicians so little that they can't eat on it, never mind pay rent.
I was extremely surprised to hear of a major local club here, in a town rich enough to support it, that pays musicians $30.00 a night, whether it is a small or large band! That is $150.00 a week, if they could play there all week, which they can't.
I have not been in the classical circle since I left NY, but the classical music beat is just as bad, if not worse.
Of course it's depressing! You study and bust your ass paying your dues so you can starve.
It hurts us all, who would appreciate the music they all would play.
My youngest son is to be a music major, and in a way, it breaks my heart to hear his idealistic thoughts of what he will accomplish as a future musician, at least he wants to teach, as part of his future plans.
I read what Suzanne wrote and I feel for her also. I know some of us sound very pessimistic, but, Suzanne I do wish the best to you and Daniel, and all the Suzannes and Daniels of the world who want to find themselves in their music.
Whatever it may be, and in whatever way it turns out to be.
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-09-20 03:01
Hi everyone!
I just wanted to make one thing absolutely clear that has kind of been brought up a couple of times.
Do NOT, absolutely not, consider being a music teacher a "fallback". AND, furthermore, do not even THINK about doing a double degree in performance and education if you're doing it because you don't know if the performance thing will work out, so you want the education degree too.
I obviously feel VERY strongly about this...and that is because the worst music teachers are those who wanted to do performance, but thought to do education as a fall back.
This is SO critical!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think I can emphasize how important this is, so please.....heed this advice.
All the best,
Julia
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-09-20 03:24
I have a second bachelor's degree (one not in music) from Stanford--I think that's enough to get me a job to pay the bills should music not "work out". However, all of my teachers (who themselves have very successful careers), think I do have what it takes to "make it," and even if I don't, like I said, I am resolute about pursuing my dream. My dream is not for sale. If I gave it up in order to have a "secure income," I would kick myself for the rest of my life, wondering if I could have done what I truly loved. I don't have a family and don't plan on having a family, or at least not kids, until I can support them. Should I, for some strange reason, end up with kids unexpectedly... then of course I would give things up. But man, not to complain, I love this board and all, but SO many times I have left this site completely discouraged after someone's pessimistic post. Maybe it's realistic, maybe not... but I don't think there is any need for it. It is things like THAT that make me depressed... where are the optimists? Yeah, music is cutthroat, competitive, and hard to get a job in, but I don't know anyone who had his or her mind truly and unflinchingly dead-set-determined to keep trying that didn't end up playing SOMEwhere...
My $.02.
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Author: John Gould
Date: 2001-09-20 03:25
Amen to all those great musicians who deserve to play yet cannot. To quote the ol' Presidential sax player: I feel your pain.
One wonders if the situation would change if the arts were more appreciated in our public schools and society. I've nothing against rap music for instance, but I would be lying if I said I didn't resent some 18-year-old who's made millions on 1/10 the talent of those who' ve taken the trouble to get a degree (and/or commensurate experience) and who can play just about anything under the sun.
But, the reality is that until 14-25 year-old-folks start demanding music of a genre that showcases the talents the abovementioned musicians possess, we will still be seeing people who can play their ass off selling cars, working in a bank, etc. Of course this is depressing. And, if by some miracle, MTV started airing someone playing the Mozart cl. concerto, I'm pretty sure the rappers, etc. would have a problem with that.
How to cope with the depression that pervades many of the arts (and sports) is an individual choice. A good friend of mine solved his depression by moving to Europe, where his music (he's a great jazz pianist and composer) is far more appreciated there than in the states. He said something interesting about depression in musicians, specifically those who are talented and deserve to work but can't:
"It's like you and 20,000 of your friends all have 5th degree black belts in Karate. You may not get to star opposite Chris Tucker in the next Rush Hour movie, but you can be comforted by the knowledge that a 5th degree black belt is a rare accolade, given to few. Rejoice in that level of attainment, for it is in and of itself an honorable thing." Chin up, amigos.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-09-20 14:56
Suzanne,
Sorry about what you consider to be the "depressive" nature of many of our postings, but we are trying to inform and educate to the best of abilities, NOT to make people feel warm and fuzzy. Those of us who have 'fought the battles' (win, lose or draw) have a responsibility to state the objective realities as best we can, and to resist the temptation to sugar-coat the world. I am an engineer doing music on the side, like Peter above. I also used to be private pilot and aircraft owner, flying for fun 'on the side', and I agree with Peter that in many cases one can obtain more enjoyment from one's passion if a paycheck is not required. From what I know of the life of a commercial pilot nowadays, I'd rather fly for fun than for money. And although my lack of talent (rather than a conscious decision) forces me in the 'fun' direction of music rather than the 'career' direction, I'm not so sure this a bad thing. Idealism is nice, and I hope you can maintain yours. But don't expect other people to gloss over their own experiences so as not to shake up your world-view.
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Author: Lisa Chien
Date: 2001-09-20 15:14
I must agree that teaching music is absolutely not a fall back, rather it is often the only option to musicians who have studied music for years to the exclusion of anything else.
Just another story. Another friend of mine who was a wonderful cellist taught music at a music school for several years in NYC during the early 80's. He loved his work, but after 5 years he filed for bankruptcy. (He is thankful that he did it back then because now it is much more difficult to file). This fellow was the most frugal guy. He had a tiny rent stabilized studio in the Village, he didn't drink (in Manahttan not drinking can save you loads of money), he did not upgrade his wardrobe every season. Yet even under these conditions he could not afford to pay off his college loans for his bachelors and masters degrees and pay his rent. He stuck with it for five years with the hope that with time he would make more money. He got his yearly pay increase of 3% es his rent increased 4% to 7%. In the long run it was a losing battle. Ithink his depression was related to his self worth. With every passing year he was making less money relative to his rent. Once he got married he had to leave his rent stabilized apartment to get a "mega-sized" one bedroom apartment. He wanted kids but his wife, who is an accountant realized that they would have to bring in much more money before they did. Through a mutual friend landed a job in music recording. He is much happier because he feel confident in his abilities to provide for his family. He still plays his cello with his daughter who is in high shool band. Last night I asked him if he regretted his decision to abandon his musical dreams. He said, "Dreams, I would call treading water financially for 6 years a nightmare."
Teaching music is absolutely not a fall back for a friend of mine whose husband is an investment banker. Her income is insignificant compared to his annual bonus. (I am shocked at how much money these people earn.) She has admitted to me that she is "lucky" that her husband's work allows her to teach "otherwise, I don't know what I would do," she told me.
I would suggest to all young musicians to follow their dreams and give it their best shot. I would never encourage them not to. Whether they stay in music or not often ends up being a decision that is not decided entirely by them but by necessity.
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2001-09-20 21:41
If every musician took the advice to be practical and look for a more secure job, who would be left to play in our orchestras? I'm sure glad Larry Combs didn't take that advice. Or Robert Marcellus, or... I wonder what those with orchestra jobs have to say? I haven't heard from any of those folks yet.
Reality is, a lot of people don't get a job playing, but reality also is, that some people DO.
The thought of working at a job I don't really like for the rest of my life makes me far more depressed than the thought of being poor... and I know that some people are different. I suppose it is an individual decision.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-09-21 02:39
Greetings to all. I am so thankful to Lisa, Peter, and David for their frank and insigtful discussions based on personal experiences in their lives. I think my crystalized dream of being a professional performer has FINALLY been shattered into countless pieces! Thank goodness! I agree with Peter and David in that when what you love to do becomes your lifework, the fun part can disappear. When I was a kid, I loved Amateur radio and took it up professionally and have been doing radio communications repair for 34 years now. I can't even begin to feel any sense of joy in radio as a hobby anymore. The fun is definitely gone. For me, the clarinet shall always be a hobby and I intend for it to stay that way.
None of the above postings were depressing at all for me. Actually, I felt freer... I felt a sense of relief. Thanks to all for sharing.
To Suzanne, I wish you well and sincerely hope your determination, drive and faith in yourself will make you the exception.
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Author: raianne
Date: 2001-09-21 03:40
when i was in junior high band i thought i played pretty well. even better than some of the students a year or two ahead of me. then when i got into high school there was one girl, her mother had been my math teacher the year before. this girl played so well she could make you cry without knowing why. it was beautiful. and that was during rehearsal. she went on to get a full scholarship not only because of band but because her grandes were top notch as well, and majored in music. she got that job she dreamed of only to decide that she didnt want to travel but settle down and teach and have a family. anyway, the point is, nothing is what it appears to be, and sometimes people need dreams not to succeed in them but to have somehting to work towards, somehting to live for. then one day you wake up with a family and a mortgage and maybe that dream is not going to be reality, but in my opinion, most people will decide that that smiling little face of your own child is more than enough to make up for that dream job. (my second child just cut his first tooth and is standing on his own and about to walk, im sentimental) maybe some people yearn for something they never obtain, but for most people life settles into a comfortable easiness that they are happy with, even if it wasnt their dream in the past (though some people do reach that dream). my dream was to be a veterinarian for all of my child hood, and now i am a broke stay at home mother with two kids and couldnt be happier. dreams are nice, but reality is even better in the end.
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2001-09-22 00:43
TRS - I have struggled with depression for many years, and although involvement in music has sometimes aggravated it, I believe it has been due more to self-worth questions than to music itself. When you are a graduate student and some undergraduate student comes along and plays better than you, it can be discouraging. I have found that anything that I take seriously can become depressing to me if I don't feel I am as good at it as I should be. My point is that you can have problems with depression no matter what you do and sometimes it is necessary to change the way you look at things. Remember that your worth as an individual is not based on how good you are at things, but what kind of person you are. If you are not seeing a therapist and your depression seems very bothersome, you may want to consider seeing one. Sometimes they can help you see faulty ways of thinking. Also, as someone else mentioned, the problem could be chemical or biological and medication may be of some help.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-22 01:32
Another thought I had that I forgot to include in my last spiel further up this topic:
I've been around music for a long time. I know quite a few people who are happy teaching music. The accomplishments of many of them as teachers and the influence they exert on our children to do well can not be discounted as inconsequential or diminished as a "fall-back" choice.
One of the influences that drove my son Daniel to the thought that he would like to teach music is his present music teacher, who, even though the students make fun of him for other reasons, they have extreme respect for him as a music teacher and look up to him.
Learning music has peaceably kept some of my children from "hanging out" on the streets with friends and from being "subjected" to bad influences. (Peaceably because they did so on their own, without having to be "prohibited" from doing what we wished them not to do, etc.)
It also gave them a purpose and a goal and taught them something they can use to the good all their lives. (How do you hold up a 7-11 with a clarinet?)
Not to mention that peer admiration due to musical accomplishment in band class, or peer pressure to out-do musically out-do the best player in the group is something positive, as opposed to what peer admiration or pressure often amounts to in today's world.
So, without wanting to belittle the success of the great musicians of the world or begrudging them their hard-earned success, we need to give thanks and three cheers for all those music teachers who may or may not have settled for second best in choosing to teach, but who, either way, are doing so many of us parents an excellent turn by helping to mold our children into better future adults through their music.
Enough!
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