 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mercedes
Date: 2001-09-17 15:56
I have a Buffet Crampon Clarinet that was made in Paris, France.
An expert at the American Shrine to Music Museum, dated it at 1935-36. Someone at Sotheby's Auction, dated it late 20's-30's and the Bossey lists have only confused me because they only have a list for Student clarinets and Harmony clarinets. The student Clarinet list dates the serial # to 1965. At buffet in the U.S. one person said 1932 and another 1960's.
ANY SUGGESTIONS OTHER THAN THESE SOURCES WOULD WE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
On the bell of my Clarinet it reads: MASTER MODEL
EVETTE SCHAEFFER
PARIS FRANCE
MODELE BUFFET CRAMPON
Te serial # on the upper half of the bore is K16121 and on the lower half that connects to the bell is just 16121. Please help! Merz.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-17 16:41
Go with the American Shrine to Music Museum's date - that is most probably the best single source for any instrumet's dating. Deborah Check Reeves has more information there than anywhere else - she has helped me correct errors in my copy of The New Langwill Index.
Sotheby's is just a guess compared to the American Shrine to Music Museum.
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Author: merz
Date: 2001-09-17 17:24
Mark thanks for answering so soon.
Do you know of a source for appraising the value of this instrument if I was to sell it?
Thanks again............M.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-17 18:32
Merz,
Am I right that you called or wrote the American Shrine rather than actually showing the instrument to them? I think the problem is that you aren't providing enough detail about your clarinet for a conclusive determination. If you search for a Buffet professional clarinet with the serial number 16121 (on the Boosey "soprano" lookup), you find a manufacturing date of 1934 which is in the ballpark for the American shrine estimate and one of the estimates from Boosey. On the other hand, if you search the Evette & Schaeffer list for K16121, you find a manufacturing date of 1965, consistent with the other estimate from Boosey. The question is, what do you have? an old Buffet professional model? or an Evette & Schaeffer? or a mixture of both?
To determine which you have, let me tell you what to look for (and it may take a magnifying glass because it may be faint, sometimes the E&S logos in particular weren't stamped very deeply). Both models should have a logo on all the sections other than the mouthpiece. (If the mouthpiece is not a replacement, it will also have a logo.) Your bell is obviously an Evette & Schaeffer Master Model bell. While this could be a replacement and not original to the instrument, it is consistent with the K-serial number on your upper joint and suggests you most likely have a 1965 E&S, possibly a master model. However, for a conclusive determination, please indicate which sections of the instrument have the same logo as your bell and which have something different. (Even finding "Master Model" would be useful.) If any section has something different, please describe it in as much detail as possible.
In the meantime, here are the possiblilities I see:
1. the instrument is a Buffet professional model from around 1934 and the K on the upper joint serial number is an anomaly.
2. the instrument is a Buffet Evette & Schaeffer model from around 1965 and either the K on the lower joint serial number did not imprint or has worn away. I think this is the most likely scenario because it makes much more sense that the K wouldn't have been stamped on a section or would have worn away, than a K was stamped where it didn't belong. Please examine the lower joint serial number extremely carefully with a magnifying glass and see if you can see any trace of a K preceeding it.
3. the instrument has an Evette & Schaeffer upper joint and an old professional lower joint. I think the odds of randomly (or deliberately) matching two joints from different models (made so many years apart) with identical serial numbers are almost nil.
4. this is an Evette & Schaeffer from the mid to late 30's. Based on comparison of the keywork of an E&S I own to a couple of professional Buffets from the mid 30's as well as confirming evidence from the owner of the E&S with the immediate next (or previous, I forget which) serial number to mine, I am confident that mine dates from the mid-30's. It's serial number is prefixed by an A, though, not a K. Still, if close inspection of your serial number indicates the prefix is actually an A rather than a K, then you probably have an old E&S with a replacement bell. An E&S of this vintage will not have any logo on the lower joint. The number strikes me as a bit high for this series but I suppose it is possible.
Another difference that may provide some evidence is on the throat G# key. If your clarinet is from the mid-thirties, that key will have no adjusting screw where it "bridges" over the throat A key. If it has an adjusting screw, it is a newer instrument.
Let us know which sections have logos and what those logos read and whether the G# key has an adjusting screw and I can probably tell you exactly what you have. If you can provide a detailed description of its condition, I can probably also give you a ballpark figure regarding its fair market value. In any case, however, that will be in the hundreds, not the thousands.
I hate to disagree with you, Mark, but unless the American Shrine actually handled the instruments, and saw the standard Buffet logo rather than the E&S logo, I think the identification is still in doubt and right now, based on the limited description Merz has provided, I would be willing to be a frosty tall one and a pizza that she has a 1965 Evette & Schaeffer Master Model.
Best regards,
Jack Kissinger
St. Louis
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-17 18:49
Jack, I think you should use verbage such as probable, reasonably possible or remote? best, mw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-17 19:11
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> I hate to disagree with you, Mark, but unless the American
> Shrine actually handled the instruments, and saw the standard
> Buffet logo rather than the E&S logo, I think the
> identification is still in doubt and right now, based on the
> limited description Merz has provided, I would be willing to be
> a frosty tall one and a pizza that she has a 1965 Evette &
> Schaeffer Master Model.
She probably does if in fact she did not supply the AStM with all the relevant data.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-17 19:42
mw wrote:
Jack, I think you should use verbage such as probable, reasonably possible or remote?
This is contingent on my state of mind and, In unusual, infrequent situations, would be extraordinary. ;^)
Jack
BTW, I (of course) meant BET, not BE a frosty tall one and a pizza.
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Author: graham
Date: 2001-09-18 08:16
In addition to JK's point about the A key having (or not) an adjustment screw, might it not also be identified by whether the G sharp rod terminates in the same pillar as the A rod (old design) or has its own dedicated termination (new)? And would a 1930s Buffet also not have a single mounting for the lower joint lever keys rather than the more modern double mounting arrangement? Also, some older clarinets have an indentation in the lower joint wood to cater for the travel of the right hand keys, but I have never seen this in a post 1940s clarinet (but I don't know whether Buffet ever did that).
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-20 03:30
Graham,
I checked with my old Evette & Schaeffer and the G# and A keys do share a post. However, there are two posts for the lower joint (left hand) lever keys. My 1963 R13 has a cutout in the lower joint beneath the right-hand key cluster, if that's what you're talking about and I think that one I have from 1981 does too. (That's the most recent one I own.) This is one of the features that distinguised the R13 from the Evette & Schaeffer (and E&S Master Model).
Best regards,
jnk
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