 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jose Carli
Date: 2001-09-17 03:03
I beg your forgiveness for using this forum to plea for peace!!! I know this is an extremely difficult moment for America and Americans, but it was not only the United States which was attacked, it was mankind. It is not only for Americans that the bells toll... they toll for all living and dead. Please, use any and all means of conveying to the Press and the Government to think a thousand times before acting just out of revenge. America has the endorsement and simpathy of the vast majority of the world population today to wage war... There could not have a better time to wage peace.
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Author: Kim L
Date: 2001-09-17 03:14
Peace is important. Sometimes it is difficult to forgive at a time like this. All Americans want world peace, I do. However, certain situations cause leaders to make decisions that they cannot fall back on. Revenge means that America could get itself into even bigger trouble and have even bigger problems than what already happened. I do not wish revenge, but I am very angry, upset, and distressed with what happened last week.
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Author: Brian
Date: 2001-09-17 09:44
I think if you watch some TV coverage, and watch planes fly into buildings, you should be telling someone else to give peace a chance, not the US.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-17 11:21
I am not out for revenge. However if you study your history, you will find that pacification has never worked. By not stopping the terrorists aggressively, you are giving them the go ahead to continue their ways of terror. Remember that those who do not learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
If we want peace, it is absolutely necessary to pursue these terrorists as vigorously as possible even if it means a war.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-09-17 11:56
Call them terrorists, but this is just what they thrive on being called. Call them mass murderers, a more appropriate description. This was an unprecedented mass killing of innocent civilians from not only the US, but other nations as well. Unfortunately, they will murder again and again, and negatively impact our ways of life, if they are not eliminated. It seems that the desire for the victim to want to forgive or speak of peace is a result of post traumatic stress syndrome, as is maybe a desire for revenge.
I think the US goverement is demonstating a rationale, controlled approach. I think pleas for peace, such as yours, should be directed at those directly responsible for the mass murder, and those that provide support for mass murders and terrorists.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-09-17 14:12
If we don't try and stop them now then we are asking to be hit again. We have been kicked and kicked again. This is another wake up call thats says we have to act and do it soon.
i have always wanted peace in my life but if you come into my yard and hurt my family I'm not going to sit back and ask you to keep doing it.
i pray that we will again have some amount of peace and freedom in this country. However today is a differnt world, and you can blame the people who did this for bringing about the changes. Don't blame the US or George W.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-17 14:21
There is no choice. Terrorists consider our passion for peace to be weakness and it emboldens them. Should we sit and do nothing? That's what they think we'll do because that's what we have done--with the exception of arresting some of them upon occasion. When you declare war on a country--you are challenging that country to defend itself or give up its borders and be taken over by the terrorists. These people have no limits to what they are capable of doing. We have to take out their leadership and nerve centers and let them know that we will not tolerate this action.
To do nothing and say, " I want peace" is absurd. It's not smart. It won't protect our way of life for our future generations. It'll say, "Come on over to the U.S. and blow us up--we'll sit by and remain peaceful and do nothing."
Not this time. Enough is enough. And besides, you don't mess with a Texan!
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-09-17 15:06
The people of the United States are unanimously united, and the Flag is flying everywhere. It is an uplifting factor, that helps off-set the tragedy.
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Author: Gary
Date: 2001-09-17 15:44
Both New York and Washington D.C. were hit by weapons of mass destruction. Those murdering infidels hijacked airliners, loaded with innocent passengers, filled with high octane aviation gas, and turned them into high explosive missles with the intent of killing 50,000 people. Their intent was to hit us with a weapon akin to a nuclear bomb. Turn the other cheek...I don't think so. An attack by weapons of mass destruction should require a response in kind. However we have shown remarkable restraint in not lobbing a nuc. Make no mistake about it...the attack was an act of war. We will be both stupid and irresponsible to both us and the world community if we do not eliminate these scourge of the earth! I don't advocate killing innocent civilians. Unfortunately collateral damage occurs during war, but we should try to minimize this as much as possible. However we should hunt down bin Laden and his henchmen and treat them the same as mad dogs. Liquidate them! God may be merciful, but we won't be!!
God bless America!!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-17 15:52
REVENGE ??? Honestly, the thought never occurred to me. What DID occur to me is that this _canNOT happen again_.
AND, if we don't do something now, it will happen again!
Jose, wherever you are or live, you owe your freedom to the United States of America. Think about it.
best,
mw
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-09-17 16:42
On our response
------------------------
The real measure of the civilized world's values is whether we will be able to sterilize the earth of the mass murder disease with surgical accuracy, while minimizing losses of innocent lives.
Terrorism is like a cancer with deadly cells inhabiting the earth. The cure requires laser beams, not invasive threatments.
On one hand, imagine a 5 year campaign resulting is the disappearance of organized terrorist with little innocent lives lost.
On the other hand, imagine a 5 year campaign resulting in the destruction of countries.
We must not only win this war, we must win it in a way that will make us proud (not ashamed). Our soul and spirit are at stake here.
This will be hard. This is the real test of whether we are truly more civlized than these diabolical beasts. We will need discipline and patience. We will need the courage to remain focused and honorable.
Individuals (many of them leaders of countries) are responsible for these atrocities. They must be rooted out and destroyed irrespective of who they are and where they are.
But compassion must also exist to protect those who just happen to be in their neighbourhood.
So of them will die I know. Maybe it will be me the next time I fly (since we will experience an escalation of violence before this just war is over).
On my fear
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I have travelled the world extensively. I have relatives who where in the WTC in 1993. I have seen violence everywhere (WTC last week, but also little girls being tortured to death by perverts in my local community, taxi cabbbies murdered for $20.00, restaurants bombed by langage fanatics). My city (Montreal) is presently the site of biker's wars. Organized crime is everywhere. How many people were killed last year alone in the US by youth gangs?
We live in a world where countless individuals use physical violence against innocent people to further their goal. For me, they are all murderers and terrorists.
I have been afraid for years of these people. I am still afraid, but I am not more afraid today than before. Violence has and will remain around us for quite a while.
At least, now, it looks like we will act at least to stop international terrorism.
On my sadness
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I am so sad that we, in the civilized world, must be hit by such trajedy before we get moving against evil. The signs were everywhere. Why do we have to let people be killed before we act? When will we learn from our history that you do not "talk things over" with criminals. You destroy them before they do harm.
In the late 30's, the sign of raising fanaticism in Europe were everywhere. We did not act. 60 M$ people died. Hitler could have been stopped with a small brigade of brave men and few losses of lives should have we acted soon enough.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, 8 M$ chinese were already dead of Japanese atrocities. We knew it then, but we waited. We were caught unprepared and had to kill countless people (on both sides) to purge the world of the evil of the Japanese Warrior class.
Why don't we incarcerate immediately the Indonesian rulers who are killing people by the thousands today? Why do we tolerate animalistic leadership to take hold the poorest countries in Africa? Why don't we put a stop, immediately, to the senseless violence in the Balkans?
Why don't we fly punitive missions to South-America and terminate the existence of the drug lords?
Why don't we severely punish the minority of Northern Irish (on both side of the conflict) who kill each others for reasons that nobody can remember?
Why are Quaddafy and Hussem still alive?
When the first post-WWII act of terrorism took place, a swift ruthless reaction would have sent a clear signal then that terrorism was not an option. We reacted with some words and then moved on to our lives. Things got bigger and bigger and we got last week.
What is certain is that if we react this time the way we did in the past (lot of words, some short-term punitive action, than back to our bliss), then there will be another one even bigger. Such evel will not stopped permanently until it is firmly weeded out from all civilized society.
On my hope
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I hope (and I pray) that we will undertake a just war and root out ALL physical violence from our societies. Yes, let's eradite those who perpretated the atrocities of last week first. But let not stop there. Let's cleanse the world of all such evils (in the UK, in Africa, in Indonesia, in Ceylon, in the Balkans, to name but a few). At home, let's get rid of organized crime, of fanatic militias, of street crimnals, of youth gangs, etc. And let's not forget domestic violence. How many spouses and children are killed every year by a fanatic spouse?
On my freedom
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I for one have absolutely no problem to be watched and searched, if in return I can contribute to the elimination of the violence cancer. Gosh! We have been stopped for years now in operations aimed at identifying drunk drivers. I accept to be stopped and to have my car searched for illegal weapons. I do not mind having cameras everywhere in public places, etc. I do not mind having air marshalls in planes watching everything.
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Author: merz
Date: 2001-09-17 16:44
I grew up and was a young teenager during the Viet Nam War. I lost friends and family to a war that had no reason exept for economic expansion. Yes we need to know more about our history, and approach things from experience.
I FIRMLY BELEIVE THAT THE DESIRE FOR PEACE IS A LEGITIMATE AND HEALTHY DESIRE. We must stop thinking of ourselves as an isolated nation that is protected by some man made borders. We don't need to live in fear.
There are the laws of God, those that state that we should not kill each other and these laws exist in every religion. Then there are the laws of Men, the ones that call for justice. I CALL FOR JUSTICE, NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF INNOCENT LIVES BUT AS A TARGETED SEARCH AND TRIAL OF THOSE WHO WOULD DARE TO CONTINUE TO PRACTICE THE LAW OF HATE.
I have been wounded deeply by the event of last tuesday, and I know that the human race has been wounded. It was wrong, senseless and futile for those people responsible, to kill themselves and all the people they killed. I thought that we, as a planet were beyond that.
The saddest thing is the response of so many people. There is a history to evrything and I need to know more about this anti-american sentiment, if in fact we have really placed the responsability on the correct sources. And although I contend that this act of violence is inexcusable. I am not convinced that we are handling it in the best way that we can yet. Beware of those that will seek political gain at the expense of a tragedy and let's think with reason and not with anger.
I LOVE THIS NATION WITH ALL ITS HISTORY. WE ARE A MULTIRACIAL NATION BUILT ON THE LAND OF AZTLAN and WE ARE UNITED BY AN IDEAL.
LET'S BE AN EXAMPLE OF DEMOCRACY, REASON AND CIVILIZED JUSTICE.
Isn't that the AMERICAN DREAM? Let's not imitate the mind-set of those that have wounded us.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-17 16:46
Gary wrote:
>
> infidels
Let's not turn this into a Crusade with religious overtones. I am <b><font size=+2>highly</font></b> displeased with anyone using this very loaded word! Those terrorists were fanatics, and fanatics come from almost all religions along with those that adhere to no religion.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-09-17 17:25
In fact, most major religions in the world say the same thing about "good expected human behavior" in their sacred books: Be kind to your fellow man, help him anyway you can. Be tolerant of differences. If you are good to your fellow man, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If not, you will be punished.
Yes, even the Coran says that.
Many of these sacred books have several sections, some preaching tolerance, compassion and sharing, others preaching rigidity, judgement and punishement. Just read the Old testament to see some very violent passages.
And, of course, the Coran have such passages.
What is important to keep in mind is the behavior derived from the study of the scriptures, not more abstract things such as to whether Jesus is a God or not. In fact, there is a "humanist" view in most religions that even atheists should be able to appreciate as quality doctrine for all men.
What we choose from these books is an individual choice.
In New York, criminal individuals (who chose to follow the violent parts of their sacred books and to interpret these scriptures in the most absurd fashion) killed people.
So, let's not make this war a war of religions. Let's make this war a war against criminals.
And by the same token, let's not elevate the perpretators of these atrocities to the level of people who are fighting for a different view of society. What these terrorists want is to chase away existing rulers (including the good ones found in their own religion) in order to gain the power to enslave the population of the countries they take over. If anybody think the folks of Iraq are free... These murderers use violence both abroad and at home. Their leaders use religious motives in order to enlist demagogically navive people in their criminal crusades. Gosh! WTC was still smoking and various Afghan factions were already killing each other for control of their own country. So much for a holy war against the Christian way of live.
If only we find a way to marshall not only the anger of the free world, but the anger of the countless people who were killed by dictators using the cover of religion to get away with it...
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Author: Gary
Date: 2001-09-17 17:41
Mark,
I am not on a religious crusade. However the word infidel accurately portrays these terrorists as religious hypocrites. True, they represent an extreme minority in the Islamic faith. However I have friends of the Islamic faith and even they refer to these scum of the earth as infidels!
I truly believe that all of us be allowed to believe in whatever religion comforts us. If I have offended anyone regarding religion, or assuming a positon as a crusader, then I humbly apologize. However I will not apologize for my feelings towards those cowardly, murdering curs that hide behind a great religion and portraying themselves as the faithful. They are pariahs and deserve the term infidels!
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2001-09-17 18:10
Gary wrote:
[snipped]
The first meaning of that word in the dictionary is "non-Christian". You may not mean it in that sense, but it <b>is</b> the primary meaning and is commonly seen as a code word or "religion baiting" word. Please refrain from using it. I have had a hand-off approach to this subject until now, but I will not have this board descend into the depths of religious persecution.
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Author: Gary
Date: 2001-09-17 18:27
Mark,
Thank you for posting my reply instead of removing it. I agree that this is the clarinet website. No further commentaries on this subject from me. Good clarineting everybody!
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Author: Emmy
Date: 2001-09-17 20:01
I too sincrely hope that the US think long and hard before jumping in feet first only to face the consequences later.Living in the UK I am not at all happy with the haste with which Blair has thrown his cap in with Bush.A lot of people here (though not all ,granted) do not want to see Britain take part in any military action but would rather look at longer term solutions to stop this vile terrorism.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-17 20:43
We've been working on "longer term" for a great, long while. Terrorism hasn't abated one bit ...
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-09-17 21:42
I was a "peacenik" during the Viet Nam era. Reason: I couldn't see why we were there. Now I see better--but this time is very, very, very different. This time our shore was attacked and the perpetrators knew exactly what they were doing and what it means to attack a military establishment and civilian buildings filled with innocent people. If we do nothing we are giving our permission for a slaughter on our own soil.
Now I have two sons--one is still military age. I don't want my son to die in a senseless war--but this one is not a senseless war--it is justifiable in every way and if he should have to go I am willing.
I've cancelled playing in the orchestra in Jerusalem this year--but for the past 7 years I have spent one month of every year in Jerusalem--including some years that we were under constant threat of attack from some of these terrorists. I've walked past little children without arms because their parents tied bombs to them and put them on a bus to "sacrifice" them for their cause. A little girl sits on the street of Ben Yehuda in Jerusalem and begs for a living now--forever crippled from a set of parents who were so crazy they would sacrifice their child.
I've heard stories from friends who narrowly missed being blown up as they took their children to school (just a couple of weeks ago)--and from a friend who was present at the Sbbaro Pizza in Jerusalem when it blew up. He was sitting in front of a wall and didn't die--but a bunch of families with their kids having a birthday party died.
Is that how we want to live in America? I don't think so. We have to fight this insanity from every possible angle--military, intelligence, civilian and any other way. We can and will protect the future of our children.
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Author: Dave Beal
Date: 2001-09-17 23:28
Thank you for your contribution, Jose. While I don't think pacifism is the answer, I do think that America could benefit from considering your words.
How much force is justified in an American response? I believe that after carefully considering the evidence, we have the right to use the force necessary to apprehend those we believe responsible for the attacks and bring them to justice. If they choose not to be taken alive, so be it.
Once this is accomplished, is the use of additional force to punish their hosts justified or productive? I have doubts about both. From a pragmatic point of view, we need to consider whether our use of punitive force against a nation that hosts terrorists will decrease or increase the motivation of others to commit similar acts. Will bombing Afghanistan discourage potential terrorists who live elsewhere? I expect it will only motivate them further.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-09-18 00:33
How sad it is that there are terorists in this world that force us to uphold out honor.
It's almost enough to tick me off.
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Author: Stuart Inselman
Date: 2001-09-18 00:56
We all know what cowardly act ocurred. As an American, fomer U.S. Army officer, I say we cannot let this act go unpinished. The big problem is finding the perpetrators. You cannot go in and randomly bomb a nation. The Russians tried that for 10 yrs. & got their butts handed to them. The solution is very difficult, we have to infiltrate the cells and weed each one out and get rid of it. Bin Laden is not wearing a name tag in Afganistan. He is so hidden in a bunker or something that he is unfindable. The only way is to bribe those in the country he is in & for them to get into the fanatics' nest. Then we find out where he is & boom boom. It will take years to develop this. Mean time on the homefront we will have to give up some of our liberties for the authorities to search and find all of these nuts. NO MORE MR. NICE GUY. Any one who preaches pacification is not very well read on the history of the world. It never has worked. Signs of weakness only asks for more punishment.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-18 01:03
I wonder how long he could stay hidden with a hundred million dollar reward for his accurate & timely whereabouts????
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Author: Jose Carli
Date: 2001-09-18 01:29
Thanks Mark Charette and everybody else responsible for SNEEZY in allowing this subject to be discussed at the BBS. Since I was the culprit which initiated this debate, I feel I should post a follow up to it and, boy, oh boy, I wished I could write it up in my own language.
If somewhere down the line I hurt someone, please, forgive me as I mean no offense whatsoever.
When I first posted my plea for peace, I was not moved by piousness, by revived 'peacenik' thoughts, or by a post-traumatic syndrome. I was moved by a gut feeling that war, at this point in time, is exactly what those terrorists wanted.
Whoever orchestrated this attack (are we dead sure it was Bin Laden?), had time (months, maybe years) to plan it with incredible and unbelievable precision. Let us not underestimate these rascals.
Those people had a long time to ponder all possible reactions. They knew how Americans would react. This reaction was exactly what they expected, wanted and are apparently going to be ingratiated with.
Humans, with few exceptions, among which those terrorists, are predictable.
By reacting predictably, America and Americans and everybody else who supports immediate warfare will be dancing according to the terrorists' music.
Even though I'm not an American and although I live about 10 thousand miles from New York (in Brazil) , every morning since the event I wake up with nightmarish visions of the attack, a bitter taste in my mouth and a knot in my bowels.
What bothers me more than the fact itself, is my incapacity to emotionally understand what makes 18 or 20 young and bodily healthy persons to dedicate themselves for months or years in a row, without blinking, with a bovine determination to kill themselves for a cause in which they obviously believe in.
These terrorists immolated themselves to a cause (definitely not Islam) which in their distorted brains is worthy of dieing for. The very last thing we should do now is supply martyrs for such a cause.
By going immediately into war we will be giving them the martyrs they need (individuals, races and countries).
I deliberately included myself in this because 'I am not an island, entire by myself. I'm part of the main, I belong the continent'.
Folks, let's wake up! We are in front of a phenomenon which we do not understand. We must, I repeat WE MUST find a way of settling this matter in a NOT PREDICTABLE way.
There must be a way out of this, other than functioning as puppets in their hands.
If we cannot think of something different (which I fear we can't or are too stupid to bother), I regret having had descendants of my own.
Nevertheless, I still have hopes. Those terrorists desired WAR. So, if for no other reason than that of not fulfilling their wishes, let's wage PEACE.
As for those who deny that history favors peace and understanding, what produced better results: The Treaty of Versailles after WWI, or The Marshall Plan after WWII?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-18 02:47
God forgive me, I know this is not going to be pretty, but:
Peace? The only way to peace, where it concerns people who have such little regard for life as those who commit these crimes against humanity can be taken from something that happened in Viet Nam long ago:
Reportedly, and if I remember it correctly, during the Son Tay raid in Viet Nam, team leader Col. Charley Beckwith was confronted with a situation where he had two separate areas to secure. The second one was a hooch which served as a sort of barracks for off-duty enemy personnel.
Since he did not have enough troops to secure both areas, he went with a troop and a native to the hooch, while the rest of the team carried out the raid.
The plan was to raise a ruckus and to kill whoever came out. One of them (probably the troop,) asked him something to the effect of what about if there are any "innocents" in the hooch?
The answer was "Kill them all, let God sort them out."
The only people nobody messed around with in Viet Nam were the Korean Tiger Division. Their policy was to kill every man, woman and child who got in their way and to perpetrate ten times the havock on the enemy that may have been perpetrated on them. Nothing else worked.
Before anyone tells me that I am wrong, I'll tell you that these observations come from personal, hands-on experience and years of studying the nature of varied and sundry enemy.
We (Americans at large) are idiots and totally ignorant in our penchant to always be the good guys and always be fair and equitable. That is bull.
I remember the O'Reilly guy on Fox News saying something to the effect that he backed our being in Bosnia whatever-the-other-name was, because "all these people want is to have the opportunity to enjoy freedon and democracy the same way we do in this country." That was one of the most ignorant things I had ever heard anyone say in public!
All those Eastern European countries, up to and including Russia, have a centuries-long tradition of oppressing and mass murdering their own, for personal or communal advantage.
The Czars murdered millions who were sent to forced labor and other tasks during the conquest of Siberia, and "disposed" of millions more over centuries. Then came the communists and killed millions more. Now they have "democracy" and they are still killing each other, now for the sake of the capitalist Ruble.
The middle East too.
As per the religious teachings of these people: If you are a muslim and I insult you today, your family will be involved in a blood feud with my family for all the generations to come. And if a brother in religion to you is outraged by what I did to you, so will they join in and it will never end, until either all their generations are gone off the face of the Earth, or all my generations are gone off the face of the Earth.
We can take care of this particular group, but in the process of doing so, we are going to upset another group who will take up where this one left off, and so on.
Face it!!! These people have been at war with the jews and each other for thousands of years and it will not end until they are wiped out as a group!!!
I don't say all muslims should be wiped out. I do say that all the known muslim militants should be wiped out to a man, and if it comes to that, so should all the women and children.
Enough is enough! There will never be peace until this happens.
And although some say that the jewish and muslim religions are somehow "cousins," they are far enough apart to be understandable that they should fight each other for territory, etc. But what about the Suni and the Shiite muslims? They have been wholesale killing each other for thousands of years only because one sect believes in "holy men" and the other believes you should not put anyone between youself and God!
That is very simplistic, but that's it, in a nut shell!
Wake up America! Our healthy spoiled home boys are no match in cunning and treachery for the present enemy!
We supported the Afghans against the Russians. How do they repay us? By harboring our enemies? Some friends!
We are not the lilly white warriors or politicians we would like to be seen as. The truth of the matter is that most of our boys who survived combat against a treacherous enemy, did so only because they learned to commit various and sundry atrocities themselves.
I swear I don't have a prejudiced bone in my body, but it is time we put a definite stop to these people who are don't even qualify as the lowest of animal species.
God help us all.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-18 02:57
Peter wrote:
>
> And although some say that the jewish and muslim religions are
> somehow "cousins," they are far enough apart to be
> understandable that they should fight each other for territory,
> etc. But what about the Suni and the Shiite muslims? They have
> been wholesale killing each other for thousands of years only
> because one sect believes in "holy men" and the other believes
> you should not put anyone between youself and God!
Let's get off the religious bent, shall we? Let's call terrorists "terrorists". Of course much of this terror can be lain at the feet of religion of all type (think Ireland just for a moment), but let's just keep to "terrorists" and not muddy the water with our prejudices. Lord knows we all have enough of those ...
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-18 03:05
Hey Mark,
My apologies in advance. Even though I feel I told the raw truth from a reasonably educated perspective, I realize this is not the place to do it.
I'll refrain from further comment.
Peter
P.S.: How about having a temporary, separate place where everyone can vent their frustrations concerning this subject. It could actually be a very healthy thing!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-18 03:24
No, I think I'm seeing too much religious prejudice and persecution bubbling to the surface in general. I hope everyone spends a little time to think and reflect upon what they've seen written here and what their true emotions are. Some of what I've read here calms me, some of it gives me great cause for concern.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2001-09-18 03:24
I read in the "Virginian Pilot" today that the Brazilian Parliment in response to the U.S. terrorist attacks (starting immediately) is making it lawful for ANY and/or ALL passengers on commercial, domestic flights to carry handguns .22 caliber or less. How about those apples?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-09-18 04:38
You know, it could become a bloodbath, but what a dire incentive not to hijack an airplane.
Imagine the thought of standing up and yelling: "All-right, we are taking over this airplane." Only to find yourself targeted by 200+ weapons, any single one of which could kill you!
Oh, well.
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Author: Jim
Date: 2001-09-18 05:32
Toward addressing a few mis-conceptions:
Jetliners carry jet fuel, a form or kerosene, not aviation gasoline, though I can't imagine that the result would have been much diferent with gasoline.
Three of the of the world's religious faiths do indeed share a common origin, the Hebrew Bible.
Firearms in preasurized aluminum aircraft operating at 30,000 to 40,000 miles of altitude are not a great idea.
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Author: Jas
Date: 2001-09-18 05:32
I have two enormous fears right now....
1) That the United States will retaliate. And 2)... that they won't.
With the first option, the people of the world may suffer.
With the second , our children's children will.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-09-18 05:56
America is going to seize criminal killers. That's it.
Peace keeping is another matter. I fears nuclear bombs. I would hope NSA should listen to Echelon system more carefully this time.
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Author: Emmy
Date: 2001-09-18 10:01
Here in the UK the curent disscussion on TV and radio concerns fact that Bush hasn't ruled out the use of nuclear weopons,I find this tatally unbelievable this is exactly what whoever perpetrated this crime wants Nothing justifies the use of nuclear weopans.I am not a pacifist and Ihave friends who after fighting in the Gulf are terrified by what the term the 'Trigger Happy' attitude of the US.
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Author: Mandy
Date: 2001-09-18 10:41
It's WEAPONS and you can't tar the whole of the USA with the same brush,That's exactly what's happening to Muslims right now!
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-09-18 11:03
Why should the US tell its enemy that they will not use nuclear weapons? Now, the enemy has to prepare for nuclear and conventional threats, and has to consider whether supporting terrorism is worth a nuclear attack. I think the US, as the victim of a mass murders, has shown great restraint. One week has passed, and the US has not taken any military action. Give the US some credit. The Afghan clerics now have a chance to demonstrate that they want peace. I've heard people asking for absolute proof that Bin Laden was involved. Absolute proof is not possible, and that's why we have courts of law to decide based on evidence presented. There appears to be enough evidence for Bin Laden to be brought to trial.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-18 13:49
Bin Laden is already wanted IRT the Lockerbie massacre and other terrorist acts; this just adds to the list.
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Author: Stuart Inselman
Date: 2001-09-18 15:32
Mark you expanded upon my solution. Put a price on the man's head and hopefully some poor schnook in his compund will come forward, point the finger and collect the loot. I agree wholeheartedly with the posts that Peter wrote.
Some of the posts are criticizing the lack of a military response after one week. We just can't go in and destroy the populace. Now the U.S. is pressuring the Packistanis, who have asked the Taliban regime to turn him over. Fat chance that will happen.
We have very tough decisions to make. If we threaten to bomb, and do it what will that do, the Taliban have no regard for human life, it would ease their problem by killing off some citizens, less people to feed and take care of. It would create chaos over there and that is it. An invasion and a seek and search mission. Maybe that with the price on his head for a snitch would work.
We Americans have a tough road ahead.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-09-18 21:50
Mark - I've said that for days "put a billion on his head and see how fast he bubbles up".
Also, guns on a plane? The next time a drunk passanger gets air rage or someone harrasses the flight attendant over the bad food, they'll think twice. Cool.
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Author: tara t
Date: 2001-09-18 21:59
How about a peaceful answer, no revenge like the govervment is all into?
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Author: Julia Meyer
Date: 2001-09-18 23:40
Mark--
Can you point to some of the religious prejudice and persecution, because I guess i must be blind since I don't see it? I mean this in all sincerity, with no sarcasm, so please--help me in this endeavor.
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Author: Dave Beal
Date: 2001-09-19 03:19
"Bin Laden is a Muslim like David Koresh and Jim Jones were Christians." I wish I could take credit for that, but I heard a Muslim man say it on NPR this morning.
To the non-Americans who fear an American nuclear response: While I personally fear that our response will be more violent than necessary, I think it's safe to assume that it won't be nuclear.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-09-19 21:44
After a few more days of thinking about this dramatic issue (and much discussions, listening, reading) with everybody, here is my read of how this thing will play out.
In the Western World, physical security will become paramount as a societal value. I do not think human rights will be breached. But I do believe that our degree of comfort will go down (lot of security guards, militia everywhere, travels will take more time), etc.
We are about to see the creation of Fortress America (in order to get into North-America, you will have to show unquestionable proof that you are OK). Folks from suspicious country of origins will simply not be let in. Racism will become prevalent at the Na frontiers (I do not think that NAmerican as individuals are fundamentally more tolerant than others - it is their institutions that are such - laws can change - they will not because our leaders, usually, are more tolerant than the populace).
This will create a sociaty where physical violence will go down. Once you have militia in the street, youth gangs are contained as a side effect. White supremacists from Montana are confined in their camps in the woods.
There might be about 100 "field" terrorists left in North-America at the moment (I am refering here to people who will actually do bad things, not their support system). With 40B$ for security in the US alone, it is a question of DAYS before no more active terrorists are free to roam in North-America.
IN ORDER WORD, NA is now safer than ever. Yes, there might be some additional attacks from the few still not found, but we are close to the end of it.
In the meanwhile, the rest of the world (especially Europe and the Muslim world) are on the brink of disaster. You cannot root out terrorists outside of NA without major military operations, blockade of countrie, destruction of regimes. For instance, the UK is the biggest concentration of active islamic terrorist in the world. They have thousands of people to arrest. They will not succeed without a bloodbath.
So, a war will take place in the middle east (with terrosism in Europe in particular)America will bungle it and eventually go back home defeated and more isolationist than ever (it is impossible for the US way of waging war to win in places such as Afganistan). Pakistan will be taken over by fundamentalists. They will launch nuclear their bombs. TGod know what Sadam Hussem will do to Isreal (a country that just vanished from the face of the earth last week - eventually). The muslim world will explode. Muslim communities in Europe will become polarized and breed violence. They will be stopped at a terrible costs of lives and human rights. Countries neibouring muslim states will be hit hard (refugies, etc.). I have relatives I love in the Phillipines. I fear for them at the moment much more than I fear for my own family in NA.
The whole of North-Africa, Western Europe, Middle-East, South-East Asia will become a power keg of unspeakable violence (including state violence) for decades to come.
In decades down the road, the isolationist NA will look down on a world wrecked by racial violences. They will have paid a few thousand lives for their splendid isolation. The rest of the world will be shattered.
By the way, the islam fundamantalist fanatic who started this all will have won control over their fellow country men, and will have enslaved them to a brutal, perverse view of Islam.
They will also have consolidated the status of NA as the safest place on earth for people, wealth, businesses, assets, etc. NA is about to get MUCH stronger in comparison to the rest of the world.
I feel profundly sad for the countess man, women and children of Muslim countries that are about to be throwed back in barbaric states (if they were not already there, which is unfortunately the case for many).
I feel profundly sad for Europeans and South-Asian who are now on the front line.
What can we do?
I just do not know. A previous post indicated that reacting in an unpredictable way might be the key.
How about that:
Bush personally go to Afganistan, discuss things over for as long as it takes (weeks if necessary), and extract Bin Laden from the Tabil peacefully. In the Arabic culture, things take time to be decided, and a long, patient dialogue might impress the Islam that a new kind of man is in charge. Think Gandhi in India who chased the British with patient, passive resistence. Bush showing some unexpected humility might surprise these people.
At the same time, the Afgan people are supported such that their condition of living (food, water, shelter) are improved. I have no issue with these people. They have been oppressed and brainwashed for centuries.
Once you get Bin Laden, you stop and focus on home security. we basically make a deal: If terrorism stop being exported, we will leave you alone.
Naturally, this does not free the poor muslim people from their barbaric fanatic rulers, but it keep Ismamic violence in the Muslim world.
After that, Muslims will have to take sort things out for themselves, the way Chritians have succeeded in their own country (except of course in North-Ireland, where the level of fanatic feeling is as unacceptable as anything else - Can be solved in a few months if the Irish and British would team up in their own little local coalition).
There are 500 people dying every week in the US from car accidents. 5000 deads is terrible. But we have accepted this kind of death levels for a long time. These lives are not worth enflaming the world, killing millions, and enslaving countless others.
Let's be patient, creative, and unpredictable. And God help those outside Fortress America.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-09-19 22:46
This murderous act has created many new problems for the US that need Bush's attention in the US. Bin Laden's end, is not the end, but only the beginning of the long battle against terrorism. I'm not convinced that the Afgans/Taliban know where Bin Laden is hiding. If they turn him over soon, before the fighting begins, they can begin to improve their position with the US and coalition countries. If they don't, the Taliban will soon be finished, because they will be under internal (overthrown) and external attack.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-09-20 04:28
"There are 500 people dying every week in the US from car accidents. 5000 deads is terrible. But we have accepted this kind of death levels for a long time. These lives are not worth enflaming the world, killing millions, and enslaving countless others."
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Do you know what you wrote?
LISTEN UP ---- THOSE LIVES ARE WORTH EVERYTHING!
IF you are the voice of Canada, I feel sorry for the citizenry there!
mw
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The Clarinet Pages
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