 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jessica
Date: 2001-09-12 22:31
hi
i recently purchased a used clarinet at a flea market, of all places. i saw the vendor had many different instruments, and he directed me to his "better" clarinets which were under the table, and of those i found an evette schaeffer master model clarinet. up until this point, i had never heard of an evette schaeffer clarinet because i started out on a plastic yahama clarinet, and then moved right to the buffet R13. so under the evette schaeffer stamp it says "buffet crampton model" or something similar to that, so the guy was trying to sell it as a buffet. well, i got him to come down a hundred dollars, so i ended up paying 200 for it. now, i have a clarinet i know nothing about. the serial number on it is K5077, and i was wondering if anybody could tell me how old it is. it is in excellent condition, besides the pads which need to be replaced. it doesn't look any more than 20 years old, and there are no cracks...but i'm probably wrong about the age, so i'd absolutely love some help from some knowledgable people. thanks!
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Author: Joseph O'Kelly
Date: 2001-09-12 23:12
it's a Buffet R-13 that was sold under the Evette & Schaeffer name do to a cosmetic flaw.
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-09-13 00:20
Hey Jess,
There's good news, and there's bad news.
First off, you bought a quality instrument at a fair price. With a complete overhaul, you will have invested about what the Master Model is worth.
If it is already playable, you're about $100 ahead.
The bad news;
The Buffet site lists K5077 as built in 1953, PRIOR to the development of the R13 with the Policylindrical bore and tone hole design.
So; while some Master Models were undeniably made in the same factory as the
R13 (presumably by the same staff), this clarinet predates the features mentioned.
All that being said, if the horn has no cracks and has the nickel-silver keys you have a potential winner on your hands.
anji
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-13 02:13
Do <b>NOT</b> use the Buffet serial numbers for the Evette & Schaeffer models - they are not the same.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-13 02:53
Mark, when going to the Boosey site and after finding Buffet and clarinet, if one searches under "student clarinet" and not "soprano clarinet", the Evette & Schaeffer dates do come up. This is correct information. The R-13's are found under the soprano clarinet category.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-13 03:08
I would not trust those numbers unless you verify w/ Boosey & Hawkes. When I sent in a number of corrections to their serial number lists I asked about the early Evette & Schaeffer and they said at that time that the numbers were for the B and E series clarinets only.
The corrections I sent in haven't been implemented yet.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-13 03:31
Of course, it is the K series that is the best of the Evette & Schaeffer, but the K and B were made at the same time. Didn't the E serial numbers begin after the Evette & Schaeffer name was dropped and Buffet appeared on all models? A major problem with Boosey is that they were not the makers of Buffet when Evette & Schaeffer models were manufactured and they don't have complete information. I have had several K serial E & S instruments purchased for students and when putting in the K plus serial number into the Boosey site, have gotten quite accurate dating from their site.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-13 04:40
Douglas, there are no E- prefix E&S's and the B's almost certainly predate the K's. However, the "E" and "B" series that Mark refers to are the E11, E12, E13 and B12.
Otherwise, however, Mark, I have to agree with Douglas on this one. Since neither the E11 nor the B12 has a prefix to its number, I can't tell whether the "student" lookup for numbers without a prefix returns dates for E11's, B12's or both. But, based on the (limited) crosschecking I have been able to do, the "student" list has been accurate for E11's.
The lookup will also return dates for numbers entered with a K prefix or a D prefix. Again based on the (limited) crosschecking, I have been able to do, the K-prefix numbers have been right on target for Evette & Schaeffer instruments. BTW, these numbers continue beyond the date when the E&S became the E13. Since I've never seen an E13 or its serial number, I've assumed that Buffet continued to use the K with these models but that may not be correct. (Does anybody out there have a recent E13? Is its serial number prefixed with a K?) The D-prefix numbers have been right on target for French (wood) Evettes and stop at 1977 which is around the time Buffet moved its Evette production to Germany and probably adopted a new numbering system.
The one problem I've noted is that the lookup does not return dates for K serial numbers below 4745 though there are K-series E&S's with lower numbers. The list also does not return dates for earlier E&S's and Evettes with prefixes other than K or D.
I don't know who put together the serial number list for them but it's probably not the person one talks to at Boosey and I've never observed any obvious errors. My guess is that it was done by a systems person based on information from the factory. Two observations I would make are: (1) by their own admission, the folks at Boosey don't always know much about the older Buffets and (2) the records at the Buffet factory (at least since WW II) are *extremely* detailed. (I have a 1981 R13 with a B prefix to its serial number. The folks at Boosey were stymied so they contacted the factory. The factory reported that the B was added because they had inadvertently assigned the same number to two clarinets. They told me the day the instrument was made, what features it had (no special add-ons) and the type of plating on the keys. I was impressed.)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-13 04:48
Jessica,
As Anji says, you've picked up a good clarinet at a decent price (a very good price by local music store standards, an average price by eBay standards, given the condition). If you go to this link:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=53469&t=53469
you should find some pictures from a 1941 Buffet brochure (be patient, there are quite a few and they may take awhile to load). One of the pages gives a good description of the Evette & Schaeffer. It is very unlikely that E&S Master Models were "blemished" R13's either before or after introduction of the polycylindrical model. There are too many of them (AFAIK all of them in the K5000 - K10,000 range) and there are two many clear physical differences. But they were good clarinets, Buffet's high-end intermediate model made from good wood and the precursor to the E13. With new pads, you should have a good practice/back-up/road trip clarinet. Because the bore is different from your R13, you may want to match a different mouthpiece to it (but perhaps not).
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-09-13 04:50
There are a number of errors in the database for particular numbers (anomalies). I ran a program that queried the entire database for Buffet soprano and found a number of unexplained gaps and incorrect date returns.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-13 12:57
Thanks Jack K. for all the information. I agree with everything except that I have found that the B & K serial Evette & Schaeffers do seem to have been made at the same time, or at least they overlapped each other in production. The clarinet with K serials were made at the Nantes factory outside Paris and the B serials, at least the later ones, were made at the Schreiber factory in Germany. That information came from a worker at Carl Fischers in New York years ago, when Fischers was the sole importer of Buffet products. I also especially agree that the Evette & Schaeffers were not rejected R-13s. For that to be, the final clarinet would have had to be tested, rejected, taken apart, E & S trademark put on, and the R.H. sliver key (chromatic B natural/F#) replaced with a totally differently designed key which has end posts placed farther apart. The rejected R-13's were stamped Academy Model below the Buffet logo and marketed. Somehow,
The story about the Academy Model has been applied to the Evette & Schaeffer
E-13. For those interested, the E & S with K serials above 15000 are usually quite good and often sell for less than $200 on eBay. They don't have the sound quality of an R-13, but are very close and sometimes one will find an example that is outstanding.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-13 13:03
It's early in the morning, I've been up too late watching all the horror of the last few days, so please excuse a mistake I just made on the previous posting. I have mixed up the B models with the D serials, so if you will read D in my posting anywhere I have said "B", we'll be communicating. Thanks.
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Author: mercedes
Date: 2001-09-14 07:40
Jack, Mark, Douglas , Anji:
I need to sell my clarinet and although it has been with me ten years and I love it, I find myself in a position, where if it's worth what I've been told, I have to sell it.
I have contacted someone at Sotheby's Auction and the dated it at late 20's early 30's. They would not sell it for me because it was not turn of the century. Other specialists in antique musical instruments coincide, yet there was one discrepancy thanks to the Bossey lists.
Can you help me verify the date it was made ? How can I find out what it's worth is?
Thanks
Mercedes
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-09-14 11:02
Mercedes,
Post the brand, model, serial number, material and anything else you know about the clarinet on this site as a new topic. Please be aware that for some reason many who evaluate these older horns make huge errors in value. Why I don't know. Or many times, they state the price of an equivalent new horn and the owner thinks that is the current value of his/her old horn when it is not.
Also look at the eBay auctions for horns of the same brand and model for an idea of the going price.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-09-14 22:28
Douglas,
I agree entirely that the D-series and K-series were manufactured at the same time (and the Boosey number lookup reflects this). However, they are different models. The D-series are (wood) Evettes (and Evette Master Models -- I have one of each), the forerunners of the E11 and E12, respectively. The K-series are Evette & Schaeffers (and Evette & Schaeffer Master Models), forerunners to the E13. Buffet did not transfer the manufacture of their Evette & Schaeffers to the Schreiber und Sohne factory, only the Evettes (and possibly the Evette Master Models, I'm not sure). Also, according to the 1941 brochure I mentioned in an earlier post, the Evettes were not made in the same factory as the R13 and E&S, even when they were being made in France.
In addition to the sliver key, another significant difference between E&S (and E&S Master Model) clarinets and R13's is in the lower joint right-hand cluster. On the R13, the wood is actually cut out beneath this cluster. On the E&S models, there is no cutout -- further evidence that the E&S Master Model could not be a rejected R13.
BTW, according to Alvin Swiney, after Buffet introduced the polycylindrical R13, Hans Moennig suggested a probem with the bore on some early units. Again, according to Alvin, Buffet modified the bore, and stamped the remaining unsold units with the old design "Academy" so the lower numbered Academy's are not as desirable as the higher numbered ones. (Searching the Klarinet archives on "Swiney Academy" should turn up the relevant message, in which he notes the deficiency and identifies the "undesirable" serial number range.)
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2001-09-15 13:47
The mouthpiece may be quite good- Dave Etheridge has an ald E-S mouthpiece (refaced by Brad Behn) that plays in tune and sounds great- i used it for a concert in 1995, and it wasn't up to the Ched/Kaspar level, but sounded much better than a modern stock mouthpiece.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-09-16 23:03
The "bad bore" clarinets that Jack Kissinger mentions as R-13s with Academy Model added to the logo are serial 39000 to 41000 as indicated by Alvin Swiney from information from Hans Moennig. It's possible that there are some R-13s without the Academy Model addition within these numbers, so any Model within these serial numbers could be a poor one and probably is not going to be a great instrument. Be careful that we don't let this use of the Academy Model designation taint later Academy Model Buffets which might be excellent instruments. I have one with a serial of 488XX which is an excellent clarinet and whose bore is identical to the current Buffet Vintage model. This clarinet dates to 1955 and seems to point to this time as the beginning of the R-13 polycylindrical bore Buffet.
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