 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-18 18:10
When I attended Interlochen in the late 1960's, besides the wonders of food served on trays without plates, date gate, as much reed rush as you can pick behind the Interlochen bowl, Lee Cabutti and his wonderfully subtle and understanding management of the High School Boys Division, etc...(all kidding aside, NMC was one of the high points of my life)...there also was the dreaded _challenge system_, which still exists today.
The system consisted of the section coach picking out a 6-12 bar passage from your part that week, usually something very technical, and then you play it. The person one chair above you plays it, we all bow our heads, and then the section votes on who played better. The "better" player takes over the chair (and perks, like a date to the melody freeze with the beautiful red haired girl in blue corduroy knickers), the less better player moves down a chair, and the cycle repeats....
I am of the opinion that this system does not lead to better perfoming ensembles, better section players, or better young musicians. It promotes a very unhealthy competition that has nothing to do with music or education, or even the real-life adult music biz. It can weld the concepts of performance fear, musical self-esteem based on occasional flubbed articulation, and resentment of your section mates into a ball of wax that is basically destructive to art and music and friendship. In short, Mark don't delete this, because I feel very strongly about it, such a challenge system is BULLSHIT. With Interlochen summer season right around the corner, I'd welcome a discussion on these points.
steve
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Author: Stephanie aka Benny
Date: 1999-05-18 18:20
WOW,
WOW,
WOW,
Such strong opinions.....you have a right to them. Read your post....very strong statements but would prefer to keep my thoughts to myself. just wanted to tell you that you had strong opinions which i am sure that you already knew!!
keep swinging,
benny*
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-18 18:21
steve wrote:
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In short, Mark don't delete this, because I feel very strongly about it, such a challenge system is BULLSHIT.
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Why would I delete this? I may not agree with you, but, honestly, why do you think I'd delete it? I don't delete posts I disagree with, just those that are obscene.
Intense competition is a way of life in the music field. If you're serious, you're going to have to centend with it. The meek don't get the jobs; there's auditions for every orchestral job, and believe me, there's pressure. If you're in it for fun, then the chair placement shouldn't matter so much to you.
There are other fine camps that don't have this kind of pressure (I hear) - I know Blue Lake has orchestra/band chair auditions but I don't think they have the "challenge". However, Blue Lake's jazz program is very competitive, at least in the trumpet section. The piano section isn't. My middle son does jazz trumpet with a secondary on piano at Blue Lake.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-18 18:24
i was afraid you'd delete it because I used the word b...s...., a very ugly word I reserve only for things that I hold very strongly in contempt..
s.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-18 18:26
steve wrote:
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i was afraid you'd delete it because I used the word b...s...., a very ugly word I reserve only for things that I hold very strongly in contempt..
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I wish you wouldn't have used the word; English can be a wonderfully expressive language without words like that. You need to consult a Thesaurus :^)
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-18 18:35
point well taken....
intense competition exists in every facet of life...I am a chemist. to get to where I am (a researcher at one of the top pharma companies in the world) I needed to go through the entire american educational system to get a phd, study for another 2 years past that, then get selected by my company as part of an application pool of nearly 100 people of similar qualifications for my job. The point I'm making, is that competition and the ideal of being first chair was never rammed down my throat early on in my quest for entry in to the science profession...it was, however, in music. In science, excellence and personal integrity was rammed down my throat, and I am greatful for it. I was told that there were many scientists who were just as "good" as me, many who were "better", and some who would get the Nobel prize. What was important was to be a good chemist, and all else will follow. When I joined the profesion as an adult, the concepts of good, better, best, or worst never entered into anyones' discussion...we were all too busy working....
s.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-18 19:03
To lay to rest the sour grapes theory, I started in HS concert band (clarinet) at NMC in summer 1969, and by summer 1971 was in concert orchestra two chairs out of WYSO when Ted Lane was solo in WYSO. At NU as a chemistry major, I studied with Jerry Stowell and was concertmaster of John Paynter's symphonic band in 1974. As a chem grad student at Illinois four years out of practice, I was in the second section first stand of Harry Begian's concert band when Mike Galvan was concertmaster. I auditioned well and played challenge games with the best of them.
It's just my opinion that this has nothing to do with music. Larry Combs beat out Fred Ormand for the Chicago gig. he moved up a chair. Who's a better clarinettist...fred or larry...the answer is WRONG...they're both superb musicians and we are lucky to have them in the world...
s.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-05-18 19:14
The challenge system as you experienced it is an abuse of the system. To arbitrarily select a passage without warning, have you play it in front of a group who has NOT been trained on evaluating players, and then have that group vote is ridiculous. It sounds more like an attempt on the part of the director to see if your tough enough to handle humiliation. Nor does it prepare you for the standard audition as I have seen it described on this board.
Now a proper challenge system can be productive and encourage the students to improve. If the students get seated at the beginning of the year and have no chance to advance until next year's tryouts, they may not practice as diligently as they should. Afterall to a student, a year is a long time.
My high schools used a challenge system and I actually liked it. I know that I didn't dare slack off or rest on my laurels. We had one young man go from last place (out of about 20) to third place within one year. It certainly must have motivated him. It went like this.
1. The person in the lower chair signed up for the challenge on the sign up sheet.
2. The person receiving the challenge could accept it or could elect to move down a chair instead of playing the challenge.
3. The director supplied you with a piece of music and the date and time the challenge was to be played.
4. At the specified date and time, the two people were assigned to a practice room. In the practice room was a tape recorder, blank tape, and a machine operator (someone from the audio video club rather than the band).
5. You drew numbers to see your playing order.
6. The first person went in the room and played without speaking. The machine operator made sure no one spoke. The second person waited outside.
7. After the first person was done, he/she left the room and the second person went in and played without speaking.
8. The tapes were reviewed by the music staff (both band and vocal teachers). A winner was selected.
9. The results were posted. Tape date xxx, Time xxx, clarinet player X won the challenge.
10. Players took the appropriate seat upon posting of the results.
Neither the band director or other band members knew the results until the people took their seats after the challenge results were posted.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-18 19:34
this is a fascinating system....wow!!!! see what a little imagination and a smile can do....
s.
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Author: stuart
Date: 1999-05-18 21:49
I grew up in Evanston, IL. and had no desire to participate in sports or anything resembling competition. I just wanted a girlfriend to write love songs for. I went to NMC for two years and saw a lot nice kids cry, including myself. To half to call your Dad and tell him you blew it sucked worse than the pride of telling him you won. I learned in high school all state competitions to snicker at people while they warm up, weather or not they hear you, just to feel better inside. I also learned a fast chromatic scale to scare people in the warm up room. But it was all just a big front based on my insecurities. What I wanted to do the whole time was have a band to rock out with. To compose emotionaly moving music. The whole challenge system left no room for the real me.
Now I play clubs and festivals. The competition is for real and the rules are sketchy if even present. To compete I have to advertise, rehearse, practice, compose, recompose, network, beg, go into debt, pray, cook--all these things that never had much to do with challenges. Infact-I often have to forget about the all the psychological baggage I developed in practicing and performing-in order to get down to the real love of playing. I have many friends who have achieved this-and these tend to be very non-competetive oriented people.
I am now starting to formulate a private teaching curiculum based on ideas from Robert Marcellus to Lao Tzu, the input of you guys, Steve and Mike, is absolutely invaluble to me. Thanks for the discussion. -Stuart
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-18 22:43
stuart wrote:
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To half to call your Dad and tell him you blew it sucked worse than the pride of telling him you won.
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That's a problem. When my son went to Interlochen Arts Academy as a sophomore, he went from being 1st chair at his former high school (1st chair as a freshman), to last chair. He wasn't ashamed or hesitant to tell me, and I didn't judge him as a person about it. He never became 1st chair at the Academy Orchestra (he's co-chair of the band), either. That doesn't bother us or him. Each musician there has strengths and weaknesses, but they're all friends. Heck - his co-chair in the band (not orchestra) won the ARTS scholarship, and the 5th chair band member was a callback for Curtis, while the 1st & 2nd chairs of the orchestra weren't. They all congratulated & commiserated with each other. None of the parents I met were upset with the kids. None of the clarinet players (I'm familiar with all of them) snipe or backstab each other. They're all individuals, and all have different personalities, but the little jibes and knife thrusts you speak of aren't there at the academy. They respect each other's ability.
Maybe at NMC things are different - I have no idea.
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Author: Ann
Date: 1999-05-18 22:45
Steve,
Here's a story about something that happened a couple of years ago within the violin section of the top orchestra during the Interlochen summer session. Toward the end of it, the violins independently decided that they'd had enough of the challenge system. Each student was careful to play absolutely their worst when compared with the player seated in front of them, and their best when compared with the player seated behind them. The section retained its seating intact.
AB
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Author: stuart
Date: 1999-05-18 23:32
As soon as I got to the Academy everything changed. People were more supportive than you'd think possible, with everbody trying to get into the same schools. Our teacher fostered a very supportive environment along with the conductor, who rotated the section. I felt respected for who I am when I was there. It was like night and day.
I never made any closer friends than the ones I played clarinet with. That includes the dancers...;).
Did I mention that after 6 years of being out I can't seem to avoid falling for an Interlochen dancer? The real challenge to that place is leaving at least a piece of your heart left!- Stuart
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Author: Mark Dubac
Date: 1999-05-19 00:56
Hi. My name is Mark Dubac, and my mother told me I needed to respond to this thread. I was principal clarinet in WYSO last summer for the first six weeks. I believe that the competition during a period of eight weeks made me learn more than I did in an entire year of practicing and participating in music activities in school, all-state, all-eastern, etc. There is a one week period to learn the challenge music. The challenges are almost always fair. Yes it is true that your peers, not the teacher chooses whether you or the person next to you plays a few passages better. In the clarinet section however, the teacher can overide the vote and make the two people play again. This did happen occasionally. The week I moved down, I didn't play as well as the girl next to me. The next week I moved down to third because the third chair played better than me. I don't see what the big fuss is. They were better prepared than I, so they got to play a few more solos than I did for a couple of weeks. And one more thing. The sectional coach will not just go straight to the passages that are the most technically demanding. The first week of this past summer we played Brahms 4. We played all of the slow solos from the 2cd movement and the faster passages from the third movement(for C clarinet). He was trying to prepare us for later on in life. We need to learn to play with sensitivity and musicality as well as be able to play faster passages while tranposing. It is usually rather obvious which passages the coach will choose. This summer WYSO will be playing Francesca Da Rimini. Gee, I wonder which solo I will have to play for challenges.(sarcasm)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-19 01:22
For those of you going to Interlochen - you can say "Hi" to my son. He'll be working at the Scholarshop/Melody Freeze :^) (He gets a few more lessons in that way, along with a bit of spending money for next year!)
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Author: Ginny
Date: 1999-05-19 01:55
Gee, I'd never put my kids into this situation. Ick.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-19 15:07
howdy mark....congrats on your playing with wyso...its a great ensemble...
mark's experience and his attitude toward the NMC challenge system demonstrates that for some young musicians, it's not a big deal, and being subjected to the on the spot competition has no detrimental effects. I'd like to suggest that mark is very mature for his age, and I'd bet he was brought up in a very loving, supportive atmosphere...a perfect place for a young musician....this isn't always the case, and I think tragic results can occur if someone is placed too soon in a hypercompetitive atmosphere without mark's personal resources.
However Mark, I slightly disagree with you concerning your statement ..."He was trying to prepare us for later on in life. We need to learn to play with sensitivity and musicality"...he may have been, but I think the best place for this is in a one on one relationship in the teacher's practice studio, not at a sectional rehearsal/challenge...was your coach sidney forrest? ask him what he thinks of the challenge system...he is one of the best clarinet teachers in the world and a wonderful man...
s.
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Author: stuart
Date: 1999-05-19 16:30
Challenges made music lessons more like sports, they used competition to motivate you to practice your part. I believe, to an extent, in the principals of competition-but never at the cost of individuality. You can go to school to learn to play like David Shiffrin but you can't learn to be you. I'm not interested in competing with copy cats.
Last night I was listening the KRS-One's record "Return of the Boom Bap", and it put me into a sort of artist/ warrior frame of mind. You guys might like it....maybe listen to it. Anyway...
My teacher now has an endless, seemless vobabulary of intervallic inventions, he creates music from his soul spontaneously. While challenges may get you prepared to play 8 bars of acticulation-can they prepare you to bear your soul through the horn? And even if the challenge is on something "expressive", you're still following dynamics and the conductors lead and your teacher and your coach, etc. Where excactly do you fit in?
In general it seems to me that kids are forced to constantly play by adult rules. My most valuble experiences were when I was encouraged to make my own rules. Ofcourse there's always those people who manage both (they tend to be only children, ha!).
I'm not dissing classical training at all, or even interpretive performing, but I am questioning why we think its beneficial to encourage conformity in something as potentialy powerful as music. Many creative kids are turned off as a result.....-Stuart
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Author: Mario
Date: 1999-05-19 16:38
The issue revolves around two related yet vastly different concepts. Excellence, and Winning.
It is one of my belief that, in order to be happy, everybody should have something that they strive to do superbly well. For some, this is playing the clarinet. For others, it will be something else potentially exotic but vibrant. It is not necessarily professional. Look at the amazing excentricity of British folks from which they derive a high degree of emotional energy (and happyness). Driven by an inner sense of excellence, passions are be nutured, developped, and produce marvelous results. "Winning" (if necessary because of the context in which excellence must be experienced) will follow effortelessly.
Winning on the other hand is something that we do because we exist in the public eye and we need to get on top of the heap for all kinds of reason (professional, material, but also sometime egoistical). It is perceived as necessary, it can even be fun, but by itself is does not lead to sustained happyness. The US for instance is a "winning" society where individuals (measured against folks in other countries) are actually not very happy: always on the edge, seeking "more" in order to impress others. The "pursuit of happyness" contained in the US constitution has been reduced, over the years, to a shallow pursuit of victory.
The key question I often ask: If you were stranded on a desert island, would you still stive for excellence in your chosen pursuits? If yes, you are heading in the very right direction. I am quite convinced that you will also be a "winner", and a happy one at that. If the answer is no, keeping on winning must be hard, exhausting, and ultimately the source of unhappyness in one's life.
Know yourself. Chose your passions wisely. Focus vigorously on being very good. See competition as a measure of progresses toward excellence, not as an end in itself. The rest will follow. You will excell, you will win, you will establish your name, you will be happy, you will be at peace.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-19 18:46
>Know yourself. Chose your passions wisely. Focus >vigorously on being very good. See competition as a >measure of progresses toward excellence, not as an end in >itself. The rest will follow. You will excell, you will >win, you will establish your name, you will be happy, you >will be at peace.
mario, imho, has expressed the essence of my point much more clearly and eloquently than I ever could.
I sent a note to the Eastern Music Festival asking them about how they handle seating, challenges, auditions....they said that initial acceptance to the festival program is by very competitive audition by tape or in person, sort of like getting a gig in real life. They accept _only_ enough folks to make two complete, and essentially equivalent orchestras. Then, the wind sections rotate parts weekly to gain experience playing all parts and solos. Interestingly, they said that the chamber music component of the program was considered central to the Eastern experience, and they go out of their way to match more experienced players with less experienced players to allow peer counselling/teaching situations. (At NMC, I was specifically told that the WW quintet I was in was tailor made with folks of similar ability and experience). Of course, Eastern has a no holds barred concerto competition, but that's only for folks who want to play a concerto with an ensemble.
If I'm not mistaken, a fairly good clarinettist named Ricardo Morrales went to Eastern as a kid....
One further point I'd like to make, is that young people who are put into a hypercompetitive situation before they can handle it and "survive" it can develop some real bad superiority attitudes....I distinctly remember that many of the wind players at NMC referred to the Michigan All-State ensembles that spent one or two weeks in summer residence at NMC not as "All-State" but as "All-Shit". Nearly 30 years later, and I'm still disgusted by this attitude....
s.
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Author: Judy
Date: 1999-05-19 22:41
This is Mark's mom. Steve - Thanks about the kind words about the loving, supportive atmosphere. Mark thinks I paid you to say that. Seriously, my husband and I have always stressed the importance of making a beautiful sound, not winning. The only way to approach competition is to do the best that you can do. This is the only part of the competition that you can control. You cannot control the skill of the other competitors, or the intelligence of the judges.
Yes. Mark's sectionals coach was Sidney Forrest. But his private teacher during the school year is Sidney Forrest too.
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Author: Marci
Date: 1999-05-20 17:25
I am a clarinet performance major in college (just finished my first year). I came from a high school band program that was not only very competitive, but also very political. At times, I wished we had some sort of challenge system since many things were done through favoritism as opposed to flat out better playing. Moving from such a competitive school to the university I am at now (SMU) has been a great help to my playing and musicality. At SMU, they rotate everything in the orchestra and wind ensemble. I have played everything from principal clarinet to bass clarinet. I have become much more comfortable with myself as a player. I no longer have the fact that I am not first chair looming over my head and into my practice sessions. I have more time to actually think about my playing rather than worrying who I can beat out at the next audition. There is no competition within the section. We all get along and have voluntary sectionals and things of the sort. I think that people should be able to have this kind of experience. The only stress in your playing comes from yourself, and only about YOUR playing. It's a much better environment to learn and develop in.
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-05-20 19:34
marci said:
I have become much more comfortable with myself as a player. I no longer have the fact that I am not first chair looming over my head and into my practice sessions
++++
I know where you're coming from....In HS in ohio, (thirty one years ago, please don't laugh at my age) I auditioned/challenged out all the seniors in the clarinet section to become first chair as a freshman. Our band director seemed to think that this was a sign of musical prowess, instead of rough talent and immaturity...I got the wrong idea about competition, first chair, etc as opposed to music real quick...it took some great teachers, namely sidney forrest, al squire, and jerry stowell to set me straight...unfortunately, my period as a first chair head caused me to make lifelong enemies, and, sadly, not "get it" with respect to art and beauty and personal integrity for a long time....NMC challenge system didn't help, but thank god Mr Forrest was there....I think all young musicians should seek out a true mentor...sometimes our teachers and institutions get caught up in the "life as a boxing match" syndrome....
s.
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