 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ray Swing
Date: 1999-05-11 17:47
Until I found Sneezy a couple of years ago, I never knew clarinets (or for that matter reeds) could double and triple tongue. Having never encountered any music I couldn’t single tongue, I never thought about having to find a method for tonguing faster. The fastest single note tonguing I’ve ever encountered was in marches such as the El Capitan by Sousa, Altissimo F 16th’s at 120 for three measures. The only other fast tonguing of note groups was in Russian Sailors’ Dance, which are 8th notes at about 160 / 180. And the only fast tonguing of runs would be The Mozart. Of these I only sometimes have a little difficulty with The Mozart. My problem with The Mozart is not tonguing speed but the synchronization of the fingers with the tonguing. I decided I would try to learn Double tonguing and started practicing it ˝ hour at my practice sessions. Well after two such sessions my tongue was bleeding enough that I have quit for the time being. Especially since one of my concerts was the next day. So, my questions are as follows:
1 - What music have you played where you need to double or triple tongue?
2 – What method do you use to double / Triple tongue?
3 – Does your tongue bleed after practicing Double tonguing?
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-05-11 20:44
Ray Swing wrote:
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Until I found Sneezy a couple of years ago, I never knew clarinets (or for that matter reeds) could double and triple tongue. Having never encountered any music I couldn’t single tongue, I never thought about having to find a method for tonguing faster. The fastest single note tonguing I’ve ever encountered was in marches such as the El Capitan by Sousa, Altissimo F 16th’s at 120 for three measures. The only other fast tonguing of note groups was in Russian Sailors’ Dance, which are 8th notes at about 160 / 180. And the only fast tonguing of runs would be The Mozart. Of these I only sometimes have a little difficulty with The Mozart. My problem with The Mozart is not tonguing speed but the synchronization of the fingers with the tonguing. I decided I would try to learn Double tonguing and started practicing it ˝ hour at my practice sessions. Well after two such sessions my tongue was bleeding enough that I have quit for the time being. Especially since one of my concerts was the next day. So, my questions are as follows:
1 - What music have you played where you need to double or triple tongue?
2 – What method do you use to double / Triple tongue?
3 – Does your tongue bleed after practicing Double tonguing?
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I only single tongue. I've tried double and for me it is SLOWER than single. When I did work on it, I didn't have any trouble with my tongue bleeding.
If your problem is synchronization of tonguing and fingering as you seem to indicate, then double tonguing won't solve that problem anyway.
There is an excellent description of a synchronization development technique in Danial Bonade's clarinet compendium. If you don't have a copy, try to get one. I have described the exercise on the board in the past so if you search the archives you may find it. If not, let me know and I'll repost it. Unfortunately, I don't have the time at this particular moment to go into it.
I sometimes tend to lose synchronization after a measure or two myself. That's because I don't work the drills often enough or long enough and so don't have the mental stamina to keep it going.
Also congratulations on even noticing that it could be synchronization. Many people think that the problem is tonguing when synchronization is the real cause.
One teacher also gave me a helpful hint. Many times the FINGERS are lagging because the subconscious erroneously thing the tongue is slow. The person works harder to tongue faster and the problem gets worse because the tongue is even further ahead of the tongue. So when you are playing fast tongued passages, don't think about the tongue just set the tongue in motion and forget it. THINK ABOUT SPEEDING UP THE FINGERS. This would be in addition to the Bonade exercise (probably the most valuable technique to develop good synchronization that I have ever seen).
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-05-11 20:47
Darn can't type today.
... One teacher also gave me a helpful hint. Many times the FINGERS are lagging because the subconscious erroneously *THINKS* the tongue is slow. The person works harder to tongue faster and the problem gets worse because the tongue is even further ahead of the *FINGERS*...
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-05-11 23:25
I've never been able to double/triple tongue on clarinet. On flute it's little problem. There's not something in the mouth to obstruct the movement. I anchor tongue so i can't multiple-tongue on clarinet anyway.
I've never come up to anything that i couldn't work up to single tonguing ability.
But no, i don't think your tongue should bleed.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-05-11 23:57
Daniel wrote:
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But no, i don't think your tongue should bleed.
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It's a real common occurance for those that really get moving.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-05-12 00:00
Ray, are you trying to double tongue side to side and cutting your tongue on the reed? Try sliding the reed back a bit on the mouthpiece so the tongue doesnt slide across the edge.
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Author: J.Butler
Date: 1999-05-12 16:09
A quote from Mitchell Lurie: "I would grab a double tongue in a minute if I could find it, but the few people I know who can double tongue are limited to an exact speed. It can only be done at a certain speed or not at all. I think double tonguing would be a great help, but I haven't found the method and I haven't found people who can do it." Instrumentalist, January 1978.
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Author: Juliet
Date: 1999-05-12 19:01
I spent several months of my music education taking clarinet lessons from a flute player. He insisted that I learn to double tongue. I spent a very long time trying to master this skill. While I did make much improvement, I was never able to get it up the a speed that would render such a skill useful.
I came to the following conclusion as to why it is so hard to double tongue on clarinet:
In order to double tongue, the front of the tongue much strike the roof of the mouth near the front, and the middle/back of the tongue must subsequently strike the back of the roof of the mouth. (Like saying, "ta-ka"). The further open one's mouth is, the harder it is to accomplish this. Clarinet players are frequently stiving to expand the oral cavity (weather they know it or not) by doing such things as "dropping the jaw" or wedging the mouth open by taking in more mouthpiece. Thus, it is hard to double on clarinet because the back of the tongue simply cannot reach the back of the roof of the mouth very easily.
I think that the shape of one's oral cavity can make a difference in how easy it is for them to learn to double tongue.
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Author: Laura
Date: 1999-05-12 20:21
On an orchestra course at Easter (in London) we were playing the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (no.3), which starts off with a whole page of staccato semiquavers for clarinets 1&2, and we had a Professor from the Royal College of Music coaching us. None of us were able to double tongue, but the flutes could, and they had it so much easier! But our tutor said that as a clarinettist he had never been able to double tongue, and that it wasn't really necessary. Which made us feel a great deal better! (although i had to some practise coordinating fingers and tongue!)
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Author: Christina
Date: 1999-05-13 00:53
I think that if she can take all three, that would be the best. My freshmen year I took Marching band and concert band. The concert band really helped me get up to the level of a "high school" player. And are Marching band was just so much fun, it is also the pep band, so, I think that she should take that all of them.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-05-13 22:37
Ray Swing wrote:
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My problem with The Mozart is not tonguing speed but the synchronization of the fingers with the tonguing. I decided I would try to learn Double tonguing and started practicing it hour at my practice sessions. Well after two such sessions my tongue was bleeding enough that I have quit for the time being. Especially since one of my concerts was the next day. So, my questions are as follows:
1 - What music have you played where you need to double or triple tongue?
2 What method do you use to double / Triple tongue?
3 Does your tongue bleed after practicing Double tonguing?
Ray -
I tried *really* hard to learn to double tongue in high school, using the tu-ku (actually, tuh-kuh) syllables that work so well on trumpet or flute. I got to where I could get a good starting articulation with the "ku" syllable. The problem was that when I tried to put it together, the air pressure inside my mouth kept the tone going as I tried to make the "ku" and so it didn't work at all. It worked fine when I played flute or recorder, so I was doing the tongue strokes OK, but it wouldn’t work on clarinet. I pretty much gave up on it after that and concentrated on speeding up my single tonguing. When you're in good shape, and at a conservatory performance major level, you will be expected to pump out sixteenths at 136 more or less indefinitely, and be able to go at 144 or 152 for at least a measure or two.
Of course many of the big virtuosos go much faster. In the Gigliotti recording of the Weber Concertino, it's obvious that he single tongues the rising sixteenths run at the beginning of the fast part, going at least at 152, and he did it using extremely stiff reeds. The famous Drucker recording of the Bartok Contrasts has some amazing tonguing in the cadenza, and he uses reeds so stiff you or I could barely make a sound on them.
*Every* orchestra audition includes the Midsummer Night's Dream scherzo, where you must tongue arpeggios at high speed. Almost every audition calls for the nasty little solo in the finale of the Beethoven 4th. The Beethoven 6th has several solos that are always on auditions. The requiring fast staccato tonguing is in the "Peasant Dance" (following the oboe solo), which has a fast descending arpeggio at the end that has to be tongued cleanly. Another is the long solo near the end of the first movement, which closes with is a sequence of rising arpeggios -- not particularly fast, but totally exposed, and each note has to be exactly the same length as all the others, and all the time you're dying because there's no place to take a breath.
Robert Spring gave a demonstration at the Columbus festival last summer in which he single tongued sixteenths at 200, and double tongued much faster than that. Get his CD "Dragon's Tongue" and prepare to be amazed. A lot of players double tongue, including Al Gallodoro and Charles Neidich (who triple tongues the sextuplets at the end of the Weber Concerto # 2 at an impossible tempo). The problem is that double and triple tonguing get sloppy much more easily than single tonguing. Neidich's stunt in the Weber is simply that - a stunt. At least for me, it's anti-musical.
There is at least one alternative method of double tonguing that is used fairly widely. Tongue an open G very hard (the way you were taught to avoid) and a bit back from the tip of your tongue. Then, as your tongue pulls back, let the very tip bounce off the tip of the reed, as in the syllables Tuh-Duh, so that you do a "rebound" stroke in addition to the regular one. It's difficult but possible to learn to smooth out these strokes and rebounds into a continuous flow of staccato notes. The method was invented by the well known teacher James Collis, and many of his students use it.
The historical treatises give a number of other methods that work well on the flute and recorder: "diddle" (for perfectly smooth scale passages) and "Di-Ri" or even "Di-Li" for "notes inegales" (a slight "swinging" unevenness sometimes used at moderately fast tempos).
A few people flip the tip of the tongue vertically, touching the reed on the up and down strokes. A few others go horizontally. I'm told that the eminent teacher Keith Stein used this method, but I studied with him for a summer at Interlochen and he never showed it to me, and I didn't hear of anyone else there using it. Furthermore, he doesn't mention it in his very thorough book. Therefore, I'm doubtful.
As to how to go faster, I guess it just comes with practice. One thing that helps is to look in a mirror and make sure there is absolutely no visible movement anywhere on your head or neck. Jaw movement in particular will prevent you from developing any kind of speed. Even worse is making a push with your breath on each note. It's called the Valsalva Maneuver, and it will slow you down to a crawl. (The famous tuba player in the Chicago Symphony, Arnold Jacobs, is the great expert on this. He has special breath training machines, which all the Chicago wind players swear by.)
Once you are sure that everything's quiet on the inside, you need to make sure that there's the least possible movement inside. The back of your tongue should not move much. The smaller the portion of your tongue that moves, the better.
The well known clinician Bob Lowrey has an excellent method of developing a light, relaxed, quick tongue. Begin with a convenient note, say the clarion G on top of the staff. Say LA LA LA, etc. with just the tip of your tongue, deliberately missing the reed. Gradually move the tip of your tongue toward the tip of the reed until it barely brushes.
Practice this until you can maintain the "barely touching" position. Also practice moving your tongue tip away and then back, to make the process familiar. What should happen is that the sound is just barely interrupted, and the breath doesn’t change at all.
Once you get this process under control, start using it on scales. Always keep the breath and sound going, and let the tip of your tongue bounce gently off the reed tip.
You will need to develop a variety of staccatos, from the just described "almost nothing" to a hard, hammered style, or even a "slap tongue" for use in modern music. You should always be able to do something more than the music actually calls for, so that when something difficult comes along, you can do exactly what is called for, rather than just what you can get out.
There are some good staccato studies written by Reginald Kell (who had a limitless variety of staccatos, all perfectly controlled.
Finally, I don't think I've ever had my tongue bleed after tonguing practice, though it's gotten a bit sore. Maybe I’m lucky (or lazy).
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-05-15 03:55
I tried that tah-dah double tongue and it's about half the speed I can single tongue!
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Author: Ray Swing
Date: 1999-05-17 00:11
Thanks to all for your replies.And a special thanks to those of you who suggested technical info on tonguing. I am going to try some of the other methods offered and if I have any success I'll get back with a post in the future. The method I was attempting was "Tuttle / Uttle".
Ray S.
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