 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-08-30 01:03
How do you replare a broken spring? The only thing I don't know how to do.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-30 02:15
Buy a repair book that has some pictures; it is well worth the money. There might be some other things that you might not know about as well. That is, things like posts, rods, pivot screws, regulation (bending keys & such). I don't think that a book can teach you everything either --- it helps to have hands-on instruction .... mano-a-mano so to speak. mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-08-30 06:46
If it's a desperate emergency, use a rubber band 'til you get a replacement spring.
If it's a round spring, you push it out of the post. Some older horns have round springs attached lengthwise to one or more hinge tubes. In that case, push it out of that. Then replace the broken spring with a good one.
If it's a flat spring, you take the mounting screw out to remove the remaining piece. Then replace the broken spring with a good one.
I must ask this, because I'm sure others might be curious too, A. J.; how did you figure out how to do everything else without learning how to replace a spring?
Mark points out two very important things. First, there are reference manuals available that are helpful because they include illustrations of the procedure. Also, it would be best for a tech to show you how (with the proper tools etc.) the first time.
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-30 11:06
If you don't know how to replace a spring then there will be a hundred other things you don't know either.
Replacing a spring can be straightforward but occasionally it has considerable complications, especially if people who think they know everything have been messing with the instrument. Sorry but that is the blunt reality.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-30 11:09
A lot of cosmetic and more serious damage can be done by misguided &/or ill-equiped spring replacement. A complete lesson would be far too involved to write as a forum post.
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-08-30 11:17
Well, I had a clarinet that was stepped on during marching band, so I took off all the keys, posts, rods, pivot screws, pads, and corks and replaced on a junk clarinet that had tons of air leaks. Of coarse they were new pads and corks. Now the clarinet if fine no air leaks or anything.
I broke the round spring to the E/C key last night, when I was cleaning my Strasser SML Paris clarinet.
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-08-30 11:20
I probably should of mentioned this I can replace a flat spring, but I can't get the round spring out the post.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-30 12:31
A.J., it's understandable that you can replace a flat spring, but don't have the tools, parts or knowledge to prepare & subsequently replace a needle spring (of course, you probably don't have an inventory of flat springs, either).. Talk to your Band Director, he probably has a book (maybe Eric Brand on Band Repair). mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-30 12:32
If you really have an interest in repair, go down to the local music store and ask for a job. mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-08-30 16:21
A lot of techs, if business is slow or they otherwise have the time, don't mind showing an interested person how to do something. I'd urge you to get in touch with one to arrange some time to do that with needle springs. You can botch up a needle spring replacement big time if you go at it the wrong way. Mark and Gordon are right on; without proper tools etc., you can really cause some serious damage.
That said, it may be in your best interest to take it to a shop and ask them to do it. They have all the stuff on hand, tools, springs and so forth, to do it quickly and correctly. It's not (ordinarily) an expensive repair.
A complete explanation/lesson, as Gordon says, would take up a lot of time and space here and it would also be far less satisfactory than someone teaching you, hands on, how to do it right.
- ron b -
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-30 20:06
To anybody who wants to do some of their own repair work, log on to Ferree's Tools website, www.ferreestools.com, and order a catalog. They sell a good variety of tools and parts, and they also sell Eric Brand's repair manual.
If I knew how to replace a needle spring, I'd tell you. If no one here is willing to tell you, I'm dead certain you can figure it out from the catalog and Eric Brand's book. Also, maybe I'm out of line here, but I found the above responses to be pretty condescending, and nearly useless.
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Author: Jeff
Date: 2001-08-30 21:32
Mike
Ouch!.....I read this forum daily and have only contributed on one other occaison. I believe that the only reason no one is responding with step by step instructions is that the potential for serious damage to A.J.'s clarinet is so great. Spring replacement can be very straight forward if you know what you're doing and have the correct tools (even then, things can get ugly very fast).
I feel that the kind and generous contributors to this forum probably do not want to contribute their talents and knowledge to a potentially bad situation. It's kind of like "tough love".
A few dollars for a spring replacement is a much better option than the cost of repairing a tone hole (destroyed because a tool slipped) or resecuring a post ( because it ripped out of the body) or replacing the post (because it's mangled beyond recognition)
Just my gut feeling.
Good luck A.J.
Jeff
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-08-30 22:03
Jeff -
I think you just said it far better than any of us. Better to give no advice than give (potentially, anyway) bad advice.
- ron b -
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-30 22:58
What a load of b**ls**t. A clarinet is a machine, and not a particularly complicated one at that. I don't understand, and certainly don't appreciate, the attitude that one cannot learn how to do some, most, or all of your own instrument repairs, depending on interest and ability. A.J. asked for some help on how to replace a needle spring. This falls into the basic repair category. You guys respond by telling the guy that he can't possibly be qualified to do this and will do immeasurable damage to the horn. What you don't do is tell him how to replace the spring, implying that an operation so delicate would require too lengthy a discourse to cover the topic properly. You actually go further and imply that this information is being witheld for A.J's benefit (good God!).
Do you repair guys belong to a protected Guild? Is there a secret handshake, maybe a card you need to get? There was a time (not long ago), where when something broke, you fixed it. If you didn't know how, you spent the time to learn how. Now, nobody repairs anything themselves. Consequently, people know less and less. One thing is for sure, if you go through life believing anything you don't know is unknowable, you're not going to learn much. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-08-30 23:18
Everybody needs to understand that the repair shop is backed up for about a month no matter what the repair. Marching band has started and people are breaking instruments. That is why I wanted to try to get some help on how to do it. I can unscrew the post so I wouldn't be causing harm to my clarinet if I slipped. But since I can't get any help anytime soon I'll just wait to get it fixed.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-31 00:38
A.J. wrote:
>
> Everybody needs to understand that the repair shop is
> backed up for about a month no matter what the repair.
> Marching band has started and people are breaking instruments.
> That is why I wanted to try to get some help on how to do it.
> I can unscrew the post so I wouldn't be causing harm to my
> clarinet if I slipped. But since I can't get any help anytime
> soon I'll just wait to get it fixed.
If you do decide to get a manual and try it, DO NOT unscrew the post. If you don't get that post put back correctly, the key will almost certainly bind. In addition, you might end up with a loose post that twists at the most inopportune times.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-31 00:55
Mike B.,
You are the one who is full of it. Several posters have pointed him in the direction of the proper resources to get the information he needs. That others have cautioned him that this may be a bit much to undertake himself is *NOT* condescending. People merely want him to think it through before embarking on this level. There is a bit more potential for error and/or auxiliary damage in replacing a spring than there is in doing pads and corks.
You criticize people who choose not to make their own repairs. That is another way of being condescending. It makes no sense for the typical player, who may experience only one or two broken springs in a lifetime, to invest in the tools to replace a spring. I've read through the procedure for this and don't consider "makeshift" tools to be acceptable for this operation. Since it doesn't make economic sense for me to buy the proper tools, I'll take my next (and it will also be my first) broken spring to a repairman.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 01:56
Mike B. you need to read before you go flyting off the handle. Look at my posts PRIOR to your "blasts". I think it's great when someone says they don't know how themselves, but they are _SO_ sure it is "easy". NOT.
BTW: You recommended the _Brand Repair Manual_ ... can we assume you have it? I mentioned it for a DIFFERENT (Band Director) reason. Most Band Directors have it. Gary Van Cott has a far better selection of REALLY HELPFUL (and expensive) Manuals. The Brand sells for about $30.00 give or take + shipping handling. IF A.J. goes down the block to the music store, he probably won't spend a dime and will get the lesson of a lifetime!
PS - A.J. is a home run! A young person who has an obvious will, desire & aptitude for this type of repair work & seems to have picked up a basic mechanical understanding of certain elements quickly. He is to be coingratulated and encouraged. He is NOT to be sent out to spend a small fortune for little gain. If he lived in Edmond, Norman or Oklahoma City, OK .... I'd personally help him get a job, or a lesson at the least.
best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 02:02
Here is to all that have MANGLED a post or 2 ... I am in the Club. Par for the Course is ruining a (connecting) Rod ... or strip out some pivot crews. There is an ART to springs. Flat springs are easy. Round needle springs are more of an art. Blued steel springs have to be heated in a PARTICULAR manner or you will waste you money & frustrate yourself even more.
sincerely,
a DUES-PAYING member of manglers anonymous
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-08-31 03:09
I think all sincere do-it-yourselfers have paid their dues, Mark. I belong in your Mangled Post Club too. How d'you think we got so smart? (yeah, right
Seriously, though...
Mike.... we probably wouldn't be so cautious about this needle spring thing if it weren't such a risky proposition trying to explain it "long distance". I'd be happy as could be to show anyone, any time, how to do it. Believe me, you should have someone show you first hand this particular procedure. Manuals are, at best, second best. Not trying to be secretive at all... just exercising a few ounces of caution.
A.J., the shop may be booked up solid. They all are this time of year. But they all have a few moments to talk with you. Be polite and they may 'squeeze' you in. It doesn't take long for an experienced tech, or a trainee for that matter, to change a needle spring while you wait. He or she may enjoy letting you watch too. No harm asking.
- ron b -
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-31 03:17
Well, I reread the all of the posts above, and I have to say that I stand by my remarks. A.J. asked for some help on a specific problem, and got a lecture on the trials and tribulations of clarinet repair (lions and tigers and bears, oh my!). I feel that a lot of the comments directed his way were condescending (especially the guy who suggested that if he was interested in repair work, he should get a job at a music store??). I also don't believe my comments were condescending, unless my understanding of the English language is seriously flawed (I don't think it is, but who knows).
Also, I agree that I haven't done this specific repair myself, but dollars to doughnuts says it just ain't that hard. I really wish we would stop treating a musical instrument as some sort of magical object, and consider it for what it is, a mechanism, and truth be told, not a very complicated one either. Whenever someone expresses an interest in fixing their horn, it seems that the repair people who inhabit these sites fall over themselves telling the person how difficult it is to do, and why that person could never successfully do the work. This is, in my opinion, a real shame. Too bad none of this actually helps A.J. fix his horn. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-31 03:39
ron b - your posts were actually helpful. I apologize.
Dee - none of my original comments were directed your way, but you chose to respond to them on behalf of who you perceived to be slighted. Interesting. Also, I'm not advocating that everybody repair their own instruments per se. Those that choose to do so should, however be encouraged.
mw - I really wahnted to recommend the Ferree's catalog. The Brand repair manual has the advantage of being readily available, and cheap. Also, based on experience, there are a lot of things I haven't done but know I could do (and a lot of things I haven't done that I know I couldn't).
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 03:59
$30.00 for a repair manual is CHEAP? FYI - the Brand Manual only has part of its contents devoted to things Clarinet. It's old, in reprint & hasn't been updated. IMO, there are better books that are readily available (Ronald SASKA's treatise is better).
Sounds like you may have a THING about repair people. You sound rather CONDESCENDING about them !
This leads me to wonder whether you can add something CONSTRUCTIVELY to this Thread?
best,
mw
PS What good would the Ferree's catalogue be? I have several copies laying around here .... got one in my hand just now .... is it magical?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-08-31 05:02
Mike,
without proper tools the clarinet will likely be accidentally mangled. Ask any band instrument place about the <b>easiest</b> of instrument repairs - unsticking a trumpet mouthpiece or slide. Anyone with the proper tool can free these pieces up - but most do-it-youirselfers (and almost yours truly - and I've been a mechanical engineer for a part of my life) end up mangling the lead pipe or denting the slides. The tools cost less than $100 total - and most places will unstick the pieces for free.
Ask any repairman how many screws they seen munged by cheap or ill-filling screwdrivers - or how many inoperative clarinets they've seen because someone decided to tighten all the screws..
Replacing a spring may need the proper punch, some bending and re-regulating, end flattening,.etc. Sounds easy, but the chances are that this person needs his clarinet in working condition, not in some half-a**ed condition. A rubber band hooked strategically won't do any damage while he's waiting.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-31 12:56
Mike B I find your attitude simply ignorant and insulting.
First, you will not have to check much to find that the few technicians who do get involved in this site, including myself, have offered enormous assistance to many people doing their own repair work. Ever wondered why? I have. It is not because they are the people you describe!
Second, it has been made clear that this is NOT one of the areas of clarinet servicing that is straight forward, although it may be when suitable specialized tools are available and everything goes right. For a novice (including a trained repair novice) there is huge potential for wrecking something. If the procedure were straightforward and relatively risk-free I can assure you help would have been forthcoming, as it has been to many others for many other servicing procedures.
To educate the novice in all the cautions needed to avoid the problems that most technicians have probably all been through could mean typing 20 pages. Even the Eric Brand book tells only the basics. The rest is experience.
We already know that the first problem has reared its head - getting a stump out. The 5 specialized pliers I use to minimise damage in removal and installation alone come to over US$130 in the Ferrees catalogue. Just how sensible or responsible is it to guide somebody into this when they do not even have appropriate equipment? Most technicians finish making their own spring punches because of dissatisfaction with those available. To make mine I use a metal lathe. The equipment needs go on and on....
Yet you know so much more about this topic. I suggest you redirect your infinite knowledge and criticism to the surgeons who carry simple hip operations, or dentists who do simple tooth crowns.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-31 15:18
Gordon (NZ) -
Are you comparing what you do to medical surgery?? Come on, get real! As for ignorant and insulting, well, too bad.
mw - $30 IS cheap for a book. The Ferree's catalog isn't magical (and I never said it was). It IS a good source for supplies and tools. Also, "best" isn't exactly an appropriate ending, is it.
Mark - the original poster (A.J.) indicated that he already knew how to do quite a bit of repair work already. This additional repair didn't seem out of line to me. Also, I don't doubt that a good number of people today don't have a basic set of manual skills, and certainly would damage the horn they tried to repair.
I, however, choose to give A.J. the benefit of doubt, rather than assume the worst.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 15:32
Mike, I always try & be polite; sometimes successful, other times not. Certainly, I have stepped on others toes through this medium & made my share of mistakes. I have also tried to _learn_ from my mistakes. No one is perfect --- what IS important is the DIRECTION we are headed. This (Sneezy BB) medium has HELPED me greatly. So, I owe something back to it. Right now, I think you need to examine your attitude --- you seem to be in denial.
(again I say) BEST,
mw
BTW: I don't know many High School kids who have $30 + $7 shipping & handling to thro at a repair manual. AND, I am not being condescenting when I say that --- I have a couple of teenagers at home, not much different in age from A.J.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 15:37
A.J. :
Dee's advice on NOT UN-SCREWING the POST is something that you should follow. John Butler can tell us more, but this is a drastic step IMO and should only be unertaken by qualified techs.
A.J. I have pulled more than a couple out & regretted a few!. If you don't return the Post EXACTLY you could have _serious_ problems. You need VERY specialized tools for Posts and Rods ... one item is called a Broach set ... there are numerous specialized tools that rea VERY expensive at Ferree's & others specialty tool shops.
best,
mw
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-31 16:26
mw -
Well, I'm confused. What exactly am I in denial about? As to whether a teenager has $37 or not, that would be highly variable. However, this equates to the cost of two music CDs. Teens as a class spend a lot of money on consumer goods, often times far more than their parents (but not always).
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 18:11
Mike, my kids don't have $37 for a repair manual --- I can only speak for MY household.
YES, I think you are in _denial_ on being a SOLUTION to what you obviously see as a problem; so far you only want to create CONFLICT.
I assure you that none of us are here for the stated purpose of creating conflict. I would go the 9 yards to help any Sneezy member --- I've sent spare ligatures, books & made phone calls in an effort ro assist. I assure that the "early: respondents in this Thread, have all done the same. BUT, of course, that's only repaying the kindness that has been shown to us by many of the participants here --- do you still want to just keep arguing???
IF you really feel that strongly about A.J.'s situation, why not DO SOMETHING !
best,
mw
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-31 20:19
mw -
While I undeniably like conflict, I'm not participating in this thread entirely for the purposes of argument alone. My point, repeated over and over now, is that all too often, when an individual expresses a desire to repair his / her own horn, repair techs fall all over themselves telling that individual that it simply can't be done without
1. years of practice and / or apprenticeship
2. a boatload of expensive and hard to get tools
3. reverence for the art that instrument repair embodies (give me a break!)
Quite frankly, I find these arguments overblown and self-limiting.
As for helping A.J., I did point him to a source for everything (material-wise) he needs to do the repair. Ron b outlined the specific procedure. As I don't know A.J., I am unwilling to do more than this. So, what exactly am I in denial about?
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-08-31 20:55
Ok, I didn't pull the post out, but it did move when the spring broke so I assumed I could remove it. As for all the arguing STOP I'm getting the clarinet repared by a tech. so it's over STOP. ok go it?
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Author: Charles Roop
Date: 2001-08-31 21:18
This has to be the greatest collection of mis-informed egotistic garbage ever. When I was in the Navy we were expected to, and did, keep our horns playing.--The number of "stop gap" repairs that included using a rubber band, or a cigarette lighter to re-seat a pad with the hope that there was sufficient shellac left in the cup to seat it were almost daily occurrences. Crow's foot adjustments, and bridge key recorking with adhesive tape were standard repair jobs. But, whenever we could get help we were happily off to any repair shop. The potential for causing greater damage could not be better illustrated than that assertion that "I know how to take the post out". For a broken spring? Give me a break. I don't own a repair shop, but in almost sixty years of clarinet/sax gainful employment, I have always considered the repair man my best friend. Buy tools? buy manuals? I can think of two repair people in my area who would replace the spring for a couple of bucks and put a leak light in the horn to ensure that all pads were seating--gratis. Lighten up. Chuck
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-31 21:22
Mike, I wish you luck with your argument(s).
A.J. --- glad to see you got it worked out.
best,
mw
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-08-31 22:09
Darn! Is it over already? It was just getting juicy.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2001-08-31 23:18
I'm sure that the repair tech(s) will have another go at it some other time and some poor soul will get attacked by all the techs fans, for encouraging self-reliance. The guy asks how and gets the usual "don't attempt this unless you are a professional", which seems to a very common response on this BB. For all I could tell on the first post, AJ could be playing with some worthless future clarinet lamp, for self-edification.
Sadly the early responses are typical for some techs, when posts asking for repair help. Certainly this was exactly the sort of "help" I got when I made inquiries some months ago, about working on worthless clunkers.
Certain respondents tend generate exactly this sort of noisesome discussion, almost troll-like...
Maybe they should get a refund from that charm school.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-08-31 23:41
Ginny, that's bull. Rubber bands, adhesive tape, bubble gum, saran wrap and whatnot is just fine for emergency repairs. All of us need to learn how to make do. But, when it comes to doing things that actually take specialized tools to make a permanent repair - I'll let someone else buy the tools and amortize them over a series of repairs. No one here said anything that could be remotely construed as being egotistical or condescending - the truth was spoken - replacing a needle spring isn't something most of us (and I include myself, a degreed engineer) have the proper tools to do, and doing it incorrectly will very possibly cause at least cosmetic damage.
I spend many years in the blue-water Navy, and know where Charles is coming from. You make do when you have to by using the least destructive methods you can, and then get the right part or send it off when you can.
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-09-01 02:41
Like any other project, after you do it a dozen times you should get pretty good at it, however, unless you intend to replace many springs, your better off takeing it to a qualified repair person. Of course if you just want to learn go for it, in no time at all your questions will be answered and eventuality you will have many new parts on your horn.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-04 09:59
OK, lets play a little game, being oh so helpful, that could go on for several months.
Question 1(of dozens): Does ANY of the spring stump still project from the post on the side where the spring broke?
(Just tell me if you want to stop the game, anybody.)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-04 10:08
Ginny, I see you're back on your monotonous theme.
Mike, Charles and Ginny (back on your monotonous bandwagon, I see).
I am happy to be as cooperative as you like. Seeing this is an issue you are so passionate about you are welcome to do all the answering for A.J. if A.J. loses interest. I just hope it does not get too confusing.
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-09-04 15:16
Gordon (NZ) -
A.J. has expressed an interest in ending this topic (and the back and forth arguments). I will comply.
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Author: RonD
Date: 2001-09-04 22:56
Gordon---->. IF you dont want to participate just move on to another post. Its not necessary to tell others not to answer. As a mature adult I am able to make my own decision and so are the others on this B.B.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-05 14:07
Apologies for not proof reading my last 2 posts.
Ron you've missed my point. Question 1 is the first question that needs to be answered in order for me to participate in being helpful. I AM a helpful person and am keen to demonstrate this. Initially I thought I was being helpful in not encouraging amateur spring replacement, but some disagree with me so I am keen to cooperate on THEIR terms.
I am not aware of asking anybody not to answer. I invited an answer, and am still waiting.
Mike, I accept A.J's wish. However your accusation of lack of cooperation is quite a separate issue. To follow this up you may ask A.J's question in a NEW thread if you would like to see the continuation of my full and on-going cooperation in answering the spring question. I assure you that after 20 or 30 questions you will have a fuller picture of the complications of spring replacement. But for each question I need the answer to the previous one.
I look forward to YOUR full cooperation.
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Author: A.J.
Date: 2001-09-05 21:01
If you didn't read this before I took the clarinet to a pro to fix it. I would still like to know how to do it though.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-09-06 01:23
Selection of method of how to do this depends on the situation. That is why a significant number of questions are involved.
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