 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-11 01:32
After experiencing problems playing low clarion B (B4), I found that the pad under the rh pinky key for low G#/Ab was leaking. Blowing into the top of the joint with the bottom sealed leaks air out there, quite a lot of air. The key action seemed too light, or when I checked again, maybe not. I sat down to remove the key and have a better look at the pad and the spring.
But. The rod holding that key would not unscrew. The slotted head turns easily in either direction without going either in or out. That exceeds my spec. I sent my repair person a note and am awaiting their reply, but my curiosity has nagged me into posting. What's going on with this key?
Note, the instrument is a Buffet R13.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-11 02:43
It's either a stripped pillar thread or broken screw thread. Someone in he past has either cross threaded or overtorqued the rod screw and now the pillar thread (which is a much softer alloy than the stainless steel rod screw) just turns in it, or they've overtorqued the rod screw when tightening it up and snapped the thread off in the pillar if it's been weakened.
Both cases are fixable - a stripped pillar thread can be repaired with an internally threaded bush soft soldered into the pillar head, or using a new rod screw with a wider thread and tapping out the pillar accordingly. A broken off screw thread can be extracted from the pillar head (should be relatively easy as the thread is no longer held in tension) and then a new and original spec rod screw fitted.
Try pushing a scriber, dental pick or heavy gauge needle spring into the hole in the end of the threaded pillar whilst unscrewing the rod screw to see if that helps the slotted end pop out far enough so you can grip it with pliers to extract it which will happen with stripped threads. If you can't do that at all, then the thread's been snapped off in the pillar which will make extracting the rod screw more difficult (as it can't be pushed out), but not impossible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-11 10:10
You can also turn the screw and try to look at the other end to see if it's turning with it. It's usually possible to see.That way you might be able to tell which of the option Chris wrote it is. FWIW the former is much more common than the latter.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2026-10-11 21:12
If the thread in the pillar is destroyed, your tech may install a replacement pillar (if he got one).
R13s have not changed much in decades, so a donor pillar will fit fine. Maybe even E11/12 pillar will fit.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-11 22:49
Replacing the pillar won't always work as chances are it won't line up once tightened as they're drilled and faced off once they've been fitted and the pillar thread orientation in the joint won't be the same on all pillar holes, even between identical model instruments.
A pillar that doesn't line up correctly both rotationally by a fraction of a degree and in height by a fraction of a millimetre will only cause the key to bind up once the rod screw is tightened as being just that bit out of alignment will cause the rod screw to bow.
And with it being the Ab/Eb key, that's not a key you can swage to make it fit better between the pillars if there's too much lateral slop because of how the touchpiece is soldered to the key barrel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-11 23:06)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-12 16:02
Is the leak from that pad related somehow? It seemed to suddenly start after about 90 minutes of play. I noticed no problems with that B or other notes from before that point, though it's possible I was playing through a gradual onset. Slightly possible.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-12 16:26
>> Is the leak from that pad related somehow? It seemed to suddenly start after about 90 minutes of play. <<
It's possible that the rod screw is a little loose, causing the key to sit differently than it was before. That said, 99% of the times I see a key with a rod screw and a stripped thread it doesn't affect the pad seal.
When doing the blow test, if you blow hard enough (and it doesn't have to be maximum power), that pad can blow open slightly even if it seals perfectly. It is mostly depended on the spring tension but also the instrument/key itself, some are just more prone to this.
If the pad repeatedly starts leaking after a consistent amount of time then this can be the pad swelling from moisture. I had this happen before. For a while it only leaked a tiny bit, enough that I could feel something, but not sure what. The difference was so small that I wasn't sure if I was imagining it and it wasn't always happening. Of course it suddenly started to leak much more than that during a concert... in another country. I guess the different weather was enough... at least it was easy to find the problem pad then.
Post Edited (2026-10-12 22:07)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-12 16:59
There seems to be some multi-directional play in the key. When I grasp it, I can wiggle it a small amount a couple ways. Same with the key beside it, also on the same rod. The two keys below (low E and F#) don't have any wiggle in them. Repair appointment set for Friday.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-12 19:44
Hi clarnibass. That's very interesting, because just before the problem appeared that pad had leaked moisture, quite a lot of moisture that blew out across the wood of the lower joint. So did the pad in line below it. I've never seen moisture in those toneholes before.
If the pad swelled due to moisture, I'm guessing there's a hole in the outer covering and the pad will need to be replaced. In that case the screw will need fixing as well.
Or maybe the pad returned to normal, undetected by me as I've been playing my A clarinet since the problem appeared. I should give the Bb another try.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-13 01:38
How old is your R13 and what work have you had done to it in the past?
Does the rod screw turn freely and smoothly in both directions or do you feel a noticeable click at a specific point as you're turning it anticlockwise?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-13 03:48
Hi Chris. The rod screw seems to turn smoothly in both directions without palpable or audible clicks.
I'll guess that the instrument was new in the mid 1960's. I bought it from an orchestral player in the early 1970's. Roughly estimating, it probably has 25k hours on it.
My repair person gave it an overhaul around 2007, and they've done minor repairs, adjusting and cleaning since then. I don't recall this key ever being adjusted. I've taken all the keys off myself to clean the bores of the tone holes multiple times. That was educational more than once, ahem, but I don't recall using undue force to tighten this screw rod or any others. Life elsewhere showed it best never to force screws that start cross-threaded. Still, if ham hands caused this, then they're most likely mine.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-13 10:59
>> I don't recall using undue force to tighten this screw rod or any others. <<
It's a pretty old clarinet. It's possible it was on the verge of stripping and then one of those times you re-assembled it it finally happened.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-17 05:17
I took the instrument to my repair person. He looked at the pad first and immediately remarked that it was way off center and not flat in the cup. (Note, when he first worked on it for me, maybe 15 years ago, I didn't request a full overhaul, and he didn't see need at the time to repad anything in the lower joint.) He could tell that the skin on the pad was old and brittle that it was necessary to put a new pad in and that that would probably fix the leak.
Then he deftly removed the rod screw that I couldn't get out. He had the right pointy thing at hand and just pushed the bottom end of the rod and it slid out.
He said the threads on the rod looked intact, but he saw no threads at all in the post. He didn't specify what that meant, but he told me that in the old days they didn't thread posts, and he demonstrated that with a piccolo apparently made of black wood with very tarnished keys that he was overhauling on an adjacent bench. I mentioned that I thought I had removed that key at least once in history, and he suggested that maybe the threads on the rod got purchase enough to move the rod to where I could grab it with pliers and pull it out.
He said that the no-thread post was likely not a functional problem, that I could leave it as is and it would make no difference in how the clarinet works. He offered that if I wanted to fix it, he could thread the post a little larger and make a rod to fit (he has tools, like a lathe just inside the door and other machines I didn't identify.) Or, he said he could fill the post hole with high-temperature solder and then drill and tap that, but that method isn't his preference; he said the post has to become red-hot in the process. After discussion, I said to leave the post as is.
I left the clarinet with him for a couple days so he can replace the pad, look at other similar-vintage pads in the joint and replace if indicated, and make sure there's no leaks.
Then we talked about a full overhaul, which with him means clean the instrument, smooth the tone hole chimneys, replace all the pads, check every spring and replace any that are weak or rusty or not right, make sure the action of all the keys is smooth and even, clean and shine the metal, I forget what else - 1 year guarantee. I agreed to have an overhaul done.
He's booked out until February with overhauls, and he had a flute apart on his main bench and a sax partly disassembled on the other side. He showed me a matched pair of Toscas that an older symphony player who's cutting back wants overhauled. Etc - for a guy who told me years ago that he was going to cut way back, he seems pretty busy. And happy. Same age as me, 73. Fun to talk with (meaning he is, I'm not sure about me.)
He said a lot of the old repair people are retiring and there doesn't seem to be many younger ones coming along . . .
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Author: m1964
Date: 2026-10-17 06:04
If I were going for the full overhaul, I'd definitely have the problem fixed.
That particular screw is affected by gravity and can get lose any time.
Placing solder inside the hole and re-tapping it seems good enough repair to me.
Also, even as Chris rightly says, a replacement post may not fit properly, if your repair tech has a spare post on hand, maybe he can try that before repairing the original post, which would have to be removed anyway.
Replacing the screw with a thicker one would require re-drilling F/C and G#/D# keys, also re-drilling the two lower posts and then tapping the 3rd post. And the rod screw has to be made.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-17 12:07
A few things...
>> He said that the no-thread post was likely not a functional problem, that I could leave it as is and it would make no difference in how the clarinet works. He offered that if I wanted to fix it, he could thread the post a little larger and make a rod to fit. Or, he said he could fill the post hole with high-temperature solder and then drill and tap that, but that method isn't his preference; he said the post has to become red-hot in the process. After discussion, I said to leave the post as is. <<
Much older clarinets did use non-threaded rods but they relied on a very light friction fit between the rod and the posts. It's not the same as a stripped post/rod, though a key can work fine that way... except when it can't. This method was used because it was easier and cheaper to do, there's no real advantage to it beyond that.
It isn't the most critical thing in the world but I would rather repair the threads/screw before replacing the pad, overhaul or not. It doesn't take a second, but usually takes about the same time as replacing several pads... if everything goes smoothly... and it often does not...
>> Placing solder inside the hole and re-tapping it seems good enough repair to me. <<
High temp solder and red hot were mentioned. This isn't really solder even though it's often called that. This is silver solder which is really a braze material. It's probably not "good enough" but more than good enough, in practice likely as good as the original threads. The problem with getting the post that hot is that it can (and usually does) ruin the plating and can also take a lot of effort to polish it back (the "tarnish" or whatever it is that is left from brazing is very sturdy).
Filling with solder, even leadless which is significantly stronger, is nowhere near strong enough for threads. It has to be braze material (e.g. "silver solder").
>> Replacing the screw with a thicker one would require re-drilling F/C and G#/D# keys, also re-drilling the two lower posts and then tapping the 3rd post. And the rod screw has to be made. <<
Only if the thread is the same or close to the diameter of the rod itself. The question is whether the largest diameter rod that doesn't require enlarging the keys or posts can have threads that would be large enough to re-tap the post. In that case only making the rod and drilling/tapping the post is necessary.
Just one example, Buffet often uses approximately 2.00mm diameter rod screws but M1.7 threads, so in that case it might be an option to use an M2 thread.
There's also a third tweener option, to solder (probably using leadless solder) a bushing (rod or tube) and thread that. This doesn't require anywhere near as much heat.
I usually prefer the larger rod when possible, it doesn't take that much time even if the keys/posts have to be fitted, and certainly when they don't. Unless someone wants the original size (almost no one cares) and then I prefer the last method I mentioned over filling with braze material most of the time.
As a band aid a drop of weak thread locker can be as reliable as any repair until you have to remove the key again, as long as there isn't too much dirt or oil in the threads that would prevent the thread locker from working (or use an oil resistant type, which I'm not sure is available in "weak").
Post Edited (2026-10-17 22:12)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-17 21:51
Buffet have always used threaded pillars on their clarinets - comparing a Boehm system clarinet with a 5 or 6 key band flute with push pins is absurd.
I replace stripped pillar threads by soft soldering an internally threaded nickel silver or brass bush in the pillar head, after reaming out the old thread to fit the threaded bush. That's the easiest and least invasive option as well as being the most effective. You can also soft solder a hollow brass or nickel silver bush into the pillar head and then tap the thread out afterwards. You could even use a bush that's both internally and externally threaded, using an M2.5 or M3 brass grub screw with a pilot hole drilled through it, screwed into the tapped out pillar head and soldered in place, then tapped out to the required internal thread and fraised back/faced off. There's several ways of reaching the same conclusion.
Clarinet rod screws aren't self tapping and have never been self tapping - neither are point screws, adjusting screws and flat spring screws, so they will need the holes they're going into tapped out with the same thread tap. Even the pillar holes drilled into clarinet bodies are tapped out for the pillars to be screwed into. The only self tapping screws are wood screws that hold the anchored pillars and thumbrests in place, although that's only applicable to steel or stainless steel screws when nickel silver wood screws need the screw holes tapped out so the heads don't shear off when screwing them in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-10-18 16:56
Thank you to all who offered their experience and advice on this. My mind has a bit of a diagnostic bend, and postings about mechanical problems and repairs always interest me.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-18 22:13
I just use my bench motor to do all this sort of work and all done freehand - no need for a lathe at all.
If the rod screw is a sloppy fit in both the RH F/C and Ab/Eb keys and their pillars, then they could always be reamed out to take a 2.2mm to 2.4mm diameter rod screw with an M2x0.4 thread. High speed steel fluted reamers can either be bought (in 0.01mm increments) or a reamer can be made from steel rod which is ground down on one end leaving it semicircular in cross section, then cleaned, polished, hardened and tempered specifically for the job.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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