 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-08-13 21:06
how does being a music major help you in careers like engineering and stuff????
ken shaw said, " That's why the second most popular major for IBM hirees, after
computer science, is music. "
where'd he get this info from? i'm interested in reading the article or whatever
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Author: beth
Date: 2001-08-13 22:03
I don't how it helps unless it further develops language, math, reasoning skills and disipline. My aunt got duel degrees in music performance and geology and my daughter is contemplating doing something similar with performance and biology.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-13 22:29
Perhaps it's another psych-reasoning thing. I believe that all arts are naturally stimiulating to the senses. This will probably sound like some sentimental or philosophical gibberish - much of what I say does - but there has to be an element of harmony and order for the human mind to function at its fullest. Therefore, after allowing the arts to run your mind for the period of time it takes to get a degree... I would definitely come out with a fuller head and more open mind than before.
To support this theory this - Have you ever noticed that a lot of the time some of the smarter individuals of a high school class are part of an organization like band, drama, or choir?
If we have a psychologist in our mist, could you please give us your input?
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Author: Josh
Date: 2001-08-13 22:49
it's been scientifically proven over and over again that people who are educated in the musical arts show significantly higher abilites in spatial relations, mathematics, logical thinking, and score higher on the SAT. So, really, we're just smarter :P There's a great article on the subject at http://www.menc.org/information/advocate/facts.html Check it out!
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-08-13 23:39
I thought IBM gave preferential hiring to Musical people because of office parties...
anji
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2001-08-14 03:41
THINK about it!
1 - Discipline: Musicians are used to perfecting skills for real-time use through repetitive solitary practice. Who is better qualified for tedious inspections of program code?
2 - Thoroughness: Most musicians who play for any kind of audience have an extremely low rate of error.
3 - Attitude: Anyone who has played professionally has probably played more music that they dislike than music that they like. Being able (and willing!) to make a silk purse from a sow's ear is valuable in almost any work environment.
4 - Analytical ability: People who play music--particularly in ensembles--at the collegiate or professional level have to develop good analytical skills and situational awareness. Of all the performing arts, ours is the mostly likely to throw us a sudden curve. Plus, we have to deal with it in real time.
Before returning to full-time music, I was a temp for years and was very successful. I often brought other musicians into my workplaces and they enjoyed equal or even better success.
So, music majors, there's your daily affirmation.
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2001-08-14 04:17
a computer is like an instrument. if a person is a musician, they already have the skills of learning all about an object and learning to perfect it. Computer companies like that mentality and are willing to hire musicians, because, technically, a computer is just another instrument to a musician, and all they have to do is practice using it for a while, and they got it.
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Author: SALT
Date: 2001-08-14 05:13
about musicians being smarter......I've heard that musicians develop a part of the back base of their brain more than most other people and that it tends to be larger than normal......something about connecting the two sides of the brain more and opening up the passageways between the brain by exercising it....I'm not sure exactly
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-08-14 14:06
Previous answers have adressed very well the two fundamental issues of learning music: It makes one smarter (the way learning to write poetry, novels, theatre, etc. does by the way - music develop the same mental aptitude as advanced creative writing does). It cannot be done well without much discipline and with a learning process. So, music major are perceived as smart, disciplined, and capable of learning.
In my Company (size 150 staff), I can count 20 with advanced musical skills on one instrument or the other (violon, piano, organ, flute, clarinet, trumpet, voice). Some of my staff also compose chamber music on their home computer. They are also accomplished professional at work, so there is some anecdotal evidence to the linkage between proper music education and overall professional proficiency in this new economy of knowledge workers.
A major in some hard core quantitative discipline (sciences, engineering, finances, etc.) plus a minor in music or creative writing, following by a Master degree in the same hard core discipline prepare a young person superbly for the professional life ahead, and provide same with a "muse" essential to enrich life and to punch through hard times. Somebody once told me that she could tell who was a musician in a group of people "by the glow of happiness these people had". I do not know if it true, but if you make a good living by day in some exciting field, and play exquisite music in the evening and week-ends, that is bound to help making somebody happy. Just have to find the right spouse to complete the equation, and you are all set for a fine life.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-08-14 14:57
Although all of the above are excellent responses, I would expect that a music major degree will NOT, by itself, get you a job in the technical fields (engineering, math, etc.). A good musician may have the right sort of discipline and brainpower to succeed in, say, engineering, but one must also have the hard knowledge, and this can only be obtained by taking the courses and getting the degree. Probably the better approach would be to major in the technical field, and either minor in music or simply do as much playing as possible, without necessarily obtaining a music degree. In my own case, for example, I recognized early on (in high school) that I didn't really have the sheer talent and single-minded focus to become a successful full-time musician, so I got my undergraduate and graduate degrees in engineering and have always worked in the engineering profession since then. But I've always played lots of music and continue to do so, and it sure is a relief not to have to make enough money in music to support myself and my family! Especially nowadays when decently-paying gigs are getting harder and harder to find.
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Author: Dave Beal
Date: 2001-08-14 15:49
I agree that there seems to be a connection between being good at music and at computers and math. But as an amateur musician and professional programmer, I've got to tell you, if you want a good job in engineering or computers, get a degree in engineering or computer science and play music for fun. Doing technical work without a technical degree limits your career possibilities.
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Author: beth
Date: 2001-08-14 17:22
I have to agree - if you want to work in a technical field, get the proper training. However...this family's experience has been atypical. My aunt who recieved dual undergrad degrees in music performance and geology, went on and got advanced degrees in geology from Penn St. and advanced performance degree in performance at Eastman School of Music. She then tried to get work as a field geologist with the petroleum companies, but no one would hire a woman for field work (early 60's folks). She fell back on her music training and worked as a professional musician until she could finish up her teaching credentials. Go figure...
But my daughter is looking at music as a means to help her pay for college and her professional training in biology..(yipee, she's been approached about a full music scholarship at a local college here and she's in 10th grade, their trying to line up an oboeist and I guess I passed along some good genes :-)) and realistically, as much as she wants to be a professional musician, she talks about her music as being her advocation not her job. So at least she'll have a life-long passion for it.
Thanks Josh for the link to the article...I printed it off to give a copy to my band director.
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Author: Bob Curtis
Date: 2001-08-14 19:38
Being a music major does not qualify you for all sorts of jobs, but it does show that you have certain inate abilities that PERHAPS can be associated with certain fields. I was a band diretor for 37 years with both a BM and MM degrees. I retired in '90. During that time I had a very successful part time job as a professional photographer specializing in weddings and photography. This stimmed from my interest in the arts and training which I had received. Did my degrees help me in this field? No, but they did not hurt, either. I believe that it was my basic character make up plus a lot of exposure to different types of individuals during my teaching carrear that made the difference. I have always advised any music major not to go in to performance by it self, but to get a teaching degree or certificate so that you could teach and perform both.
Bob Curtis
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Author: Mike B.
Date: 2001-08-14 21:51
I've worked as a technical manager (electrical engineering) with hiring responsibilities. Having a music major has absolutely NO bearing on your chances of getting hired. I also would question statements made by musicians concerning their above average intelligence. These comments are self-flattering and hence biased. I've known plenty of musicians (personal anecdote), and don't recall being impressed (or disappointed) on average intelligence-wise. Regards,
Mike B.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-14 23:36
... which came first, Chicken or the Egg? (how do we get THERE from here?)
I respectfully _disagree_ when anyone says that an aptitude for music means that such individual will be excell at math, programming, engineering or have above average intelligence. I have met smart & not-so-smart Musicians. Being a Musician takes a willingness/discipline to learn, study & practice. Almost everything that needs to be done, can be learned (speaking to the LEVEL of musicianship). NOW, I haven't met any Musicians who were morons, although a couple acted that way (acting as opposed to being are different things, aren't they?)
FLIP THE COIN:
That said, there are some VERY bright individuals who pick up Musical concepts (including performance with Instruments) very quickly. That is, there are probably few things, MENTALLY speaking, that these individuals would fail at. They excell at most anything they touch. They are NOT the majority.
Oh my, but don't we all like to think of ourselves as SPECIAL?
best,
mw
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-08-15 13:53
As somebody who had hired hundreds of engineering people for 20 years, who himself has advanced degrees in technical disciplines, and has been a serious amateur musician for 30 years, here are my opinions (which may or may not be well-founded, but dictate a lot of the hiring decisions I make):
(Much of the following will restate the excellent observations of many previous posts. I am merely organizing things a bit).
- Technical professionals need technical education. By technical professional I mean those professional who make use of advanced scientifics and technological concepts in their daily profession. Engineers, scientists, medical professionals are good examples. There are others such as financial specialists, lawyers who also require a thorough education in formal disciplines.
- Music majors with no formal education in a technical discipline WILL NOT be offered professional technical jobs - period. But there are many other kinds of job in technology firms where so-called soft-skills are called for. My favorite example is marketing demonstration which is a kind of scripted performance where actors are simply excellent. Technical writing is where people with creative writing education often end up. Musicians can certainly help in support tasks where executions of scenarios designed by others is required. Quality Control is a good example.
- The news that IBM hire lot of music majors needs back-up. I deal with IBM folks on a daily basis. They are engineering types. I have simply never met music majors on the front-line of IBM activities (which does not mean it is not true, but numbers would be nice here).
So, if you want to work in technology, get a technology degree.
However, a music education as a minor or as a passionate advocavy is incredibly valuable. THE SAME HOLDS TRUE FOR ANY OTHER ACTIVITIES PERFORMED AT A HIGH LEVEL. Whether you are a serious amateur musician, actor, writer, painter, marathon runner, cyclists, rock climber, kayaker, sky-diver, golfer, parent, entrepreneur, so on and so forth, what matter are:
- Passion
- Rigor and discipline
- Focus and determination
- Intimate knowledge of a body of know-how about your activity
- Constant hard work
When I hire people, I look for people who have at least one real passion in life. What we do on our own time is us in the truest form. If one is serious about something personal, the character demonstrated herein will have an influence on work ethic and habits.
On the other hand, I stay away from dabblers who do little things here and there with no apparant pursuit of excellence - people who are looking to be entertained. Dabblers at home also dabble at work.
If you look around, you will see that very few people really have a personal passion about anything (with the usual excuse, not time, children, too tired, etc.). Besides the fact that these people have little to hold on in order to find happiness, their soft approach to their potential also limit their professional potential. Sharp employers stay way from these drifters, at least for key positions on the critical path of the mission of the organization.
Because passinate people are so few, serious amateurs stand out and appear differentl. Serious amateurs (in any field, not just music) out there, observe how observers react to you when they see you do something very well - they are actually uncomfortable because it is weird for them to see somebody excel in something difficult - Top amateur golfers get this reaction all the time. Top sailors are another examples that I know very well.
In general, accomplished amateurs are not welcome because they shame the majority of dabblers. It is why these serious amateurs keep for themselves and undertake their favorite activities only with peers.
The summary of all of that: musicians per see are not smarter than others. But, passionate amateur musicans are more capable than average, and so are any other amateurs in any field. Look for well-actualized passion.
By the way, often-times, work is the passion. This is OK. Contrary to common belief, it is OK for people to put their work as primus inter pares. In fact, the great companies that exist around us and generate all this wealth that trickle down to the rest of society (in particular to professional musicians who create beauty but consume wealth) have been created because an obsessive individual with unstoppable passion have actualized a deeply held vision. Entrepreneurship is one example of passions that make people smarter than average.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-08-15 18:05
A great thread.
Mario and Allen Cole say just what I was trying to say. It's not that musical aptitude somehow equates with intelligence (though I think that's true). It's that learning to play an instrument involves hard, detailed, well organized effort over a long period of time. These habits of mind are what carry over into other areas.
The statement about IBM comes from my wife, who has a Ph.D. in music history, taught college music, discovered an aptitude for computers, worked with a lot of people trained at IBM and is now a bank vice president doing worldwide software distribution. She learned that fact from the IBM people she worked with.
I was an English major in college, worked as an editor and then went to law school, playing and practicing clarinet all the way along. My personal experience is that practicing scales and being a precise legal writer are the same type of skill involve the same sort of effort to get good at.
That's why my wife and I both think that music is the best of all possible college majors, not to mention that it you learn to love the best thing humanity has produced.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-08-16 07:25
I believe Einstein once stated that had it not been for his knowledge of music, he would have never been able to come up with his theories.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-17 01:48
I have recently talked to both a psychologist AND an engineer [My parents] and I have found that there have been some very strange studies on the human brain, and they have drawn some very odd conclusions out there that cannot be proven in any way but have yet to be disproven, much like a mathematical postulate:
1) Musical aptitude can be indirectly related with mathematical skills. The concept of musical theory is obviously based on mathematics, patterns and fractions, os this is understnadable. But what causes what? Students with strong abilities for music, whether performance or just a knack for composition, perform better on math apt-tests.
2) Studies have found that listening to Mozart MAY increase mathematical ability. There's question about the validity of this study, but once again it has yet to be disproven.
3) Music overall can have a certain stimulation to the brain, and different artists have the tendency to create different stimlations. (For example, Beethoven would stimulate parts of your brain differently than Ravel or Chopin or Bach would.) Once again, there is question about the validity of this research.
And, IMHO, it is NOT self-flattery to state that musicians are smarter or do better on tests. It's just a possible proposition of a new theory. A self-centered one for forums like these, yes, but after all, who knows for certain what makes people smarter? There are almost always exceptions to every rule.
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Author: Mario
Date: 2001-08-17 12:58
In fairly recent readings about this topic, there are recurring and exciting reports about the influence of music on IQ. Indeed:
- It looks like that straightforward, clear, tonal music (for instance, Mozart) does improve cognitive abilities but for only a short period of time. The right music operates like a brain enhancing drug whose effects disappear after a little while.
(some actually suspect that music is addicting - I can believe that),
- Contrary to common belief, it does not have to be "grand" music. It has to be tonal music, since it seems that the brain is inherently wired to process pleasurably music that sounds straightforward.
- None of the research is capable, at this state, to say whether learning music leaves the brain permanently improved.
- At the same time, the further away the music is from this simple ideal, the less comfortable one is, and the less intelligent the brain is, at least for a short-term. Be careful here, it has nothing to do with style of music. Rock "tonal" music is good for you the same way Mozart is. Many students (and young professionals in IT) nowadays study with walkman on. While it might sound weird to us oldies, it might just be the right thing to do. But stay away from Berg and Stockhausen....
The most interesting result of this research, so far, is that the brain has neural pathways designed specifically to process tonal music. Our brain is wired for it. But nobody knows why we evolved this way since music (at least for now) has no apparant competitive advantage. Music pathways and verbal pathways are different, so go figure.
We human are meant to produce and listen to beautiful music. Enjoy, this is our nature.
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