 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-10-13 16:33
There has been some discussion about this over the years.
I realize that there is a lot of variations of taste and opinion regarding different cuts of reeds and that no system is perfect. But, Is there any logical reason why the makers cannot just adjust their numbering system so within their own brand a 3 is more or less the same in all cuts?
I would assume that others also find it tedious to have to pore over charts to figure out whether to move up or down in strength when trying the various styles. It would seem so much more user (and wallet) friendly to know that there is a certain similarity to the designation. It often reminds me of the famous scene in Spinal Tap "yeah, but these go to 11" Why not just adjust the numbering?
And let's not even get into the logic (?) behind the numbering of the Vandoren synthetic reed!
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-10-13 17:28
First Ed I want to make sure that we're addressing the same problem.
Take this chart of recommended Vandoren reed strengths, by Vandoren, for their, for example, M15 mouthpiece: https://vandoren.fr/en/vandoren-mouthpieces/m15-bb-clarinet-mouthpiece/
I think that your beef is that depending on which model of their reed you use on this (or other ) mouthpieces, the strength recommendations can vary, and it would be nice if they were consistent, at least across a manufacturer.
I think it's the very frustrations with this numbering, (and perhaps Vandoren's ability to more precisely control strength in their synthetic offering) that may have led to the new strength system launched with and exclusive to this product.
Certainly I don't disagree with your claims, but I'm tempted to say that if tomorrow Vandoren recalibrated their cane strengths to be more consistent across their reed cuts https://vandoren.fr/en/reeds-technical-elements/ I am not sure that that much would change for us players.
I say this because the mechanisms by which, Vandoren at least, grades their reeds is IMHO enormously crude and inaccurate: not that I am confident there is a better way, let alone one that wouldn't astronomically raise purchase cost.
As you may know, all reeds of a particular reed design (e.g. 56 Rue LePic) are cut as close to identically as their machines and quality assurance of their accuracy will allow, Vandoren claiming accuracy between reeds to less than the width of a human hair.
It is mother nature who builds into the cane the propensity for more or less rigidity (strength variability from reed to reed across one model of near identically cut reeds.)
Once cut, and completely dry, a puff of a consistent quantity and pressure of air, at a consistent distance from the reed, is blown upon it and the reed's deflection from this force is noted: the more deflection the weaker the strength assigned to this reed. It's much like an ocular tonometer tests for interocular pressure for glaucoma.
Whose to say that once wet: a process that makes the reed more pliable, that its strength remains consistent with the dry puff test. Within the same, say, 3.5 strength set of Vandoren V21 reeds, your guess is as good as mine as to whether they all respond to moisture, or for that matter the stress of vibration over time in similar ways.
My approach to this obstacle is similar to the one woodworkers take to buying a 2 x 4 piece of wood. That purchase is only of some raw material that first needs to visit the craftsman's jointer and planer (two woodworker tools for squaring one side and then using it as a frame of reference to flatten the other 3 sides respectively).
By analogy, I buy reeds slightly too strong for my taste (in my case 3.5 across all Vandoren brands) and then, considering them raw material like the 2 x 4, sand them down via, in my case, mostly Ridenour's ATG method, to where they play comfortably and evenly on either side for me.
I have no idea if my removal of material deviates the reed for its original contour design or if it is physically similar on either side, much less to I care. Just as cane can vary from one reed in the box to the next, whose to say that even within the single reeds itself that the fibers that give it strength are consistent inter-reed. Who knows, if I took a measuring device to the reed after adjustment if its physical dimensions from one side to the other would be more or less symmetrical (probably less) and for that matter who cares. I strive for consistency in play, not dimensions: of course if the two happen to jibe, great, so be it.
It is realities like these that leave me with skepticism over reed copying machines. As the base material being cut is a product of the variability of mother nature, whose to say that such cutting is nothing more, once complete, than a starting point for further play based removal of reed material to the player's liking.
So I guess the TL;DR moral of this story is to buy a consistent strength across all the models, that's slightly more than you can play out of the box, and resolve to reed adjustment techniques, or go synthetic, which of course replaces some reed issues with others.
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2025-10-14 00:46
Thanks for the tip about the ATG system, just bought it. :-)
Aging classical trumpet player learning clarinet as a second.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-10-14 02:47
kurth83 wrote:
> Thanks for the tip about the ATG system, just bought it. :-)
>
In a minefield of useless clarinet equipment lies one particular product that's the shining beacon on top of the hill: the ATG system.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-10-14 23:56
I always thought that the true benefit of the ATG is not really about the device itself, but that he has a methodical way of testing and working on reeds. Often people can approach reed work in a somewhat haphazard style.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-10-15 01:12
For quite some time I've been annoyed that there aren't intermediate strengths in Vandoren reeds. In V12s 3 1/2 and 3 1/2+ are not unusable to me. Instead, there should be 3+ and 2.5+. The thing is, even with the slightest adjustment I feel like I make reed worse. Nothing can be like precise strength ready from manufacturer. They don't get it. There's quite a strength gap between 2 1/2 - 3 and 3 - 3 1/2. Would be very important in my opinion to make reeds within there and stop making number 5 and 5+ if manufacturing cost is what keeps them from that. Imagine, how many people play 5 and 5+ in comparison to how many would play 2.5+ and 3+. We can already see how would go..
Post Edited (2025-10-15 01:20)
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Author: portine
Date: 2025-10-15 12:24
Ed: Manufacturers' strength charts are 50% truth and 50% marketing, designed to encourage as many people as possible to use or at least try out their reeds imo. Personally, I have played many different reeds in the past; some of them had 7–8 good ones (the old Steuer ones, for example) until it changed... I played Vandoren Traditional and V12 reeds, as well as many Daddarios, Gonzales, Pilgerstorfer, Morre etc. Even when looking for the best strength, I always had to buy a few extra boxes, despite checking the charts. Now my practice room is full of unused reeds.
Jimis4klar: I couldn't agree more. I've also checked ATG for a while but it is pretty time-consuming for me. Now I started to use reedfinder because they preselect reeds by exact strength and some other factors. This means I can basically get the strength I need, e.g. 3.3 or 3.4 which is perfect for me from the Rue Lepic ones.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-10-15 14:26
Oh man, I'd LOVE it if Vandoren made a V12 3.25 (or "3+") strength!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-10-15 18:53
Quote:
Now my practice room is full of unused reeds.
Don't you have a fireplace? LOL
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-10-15 20:44
Jimis4klar wrote:
> The thing is, even with the slightest adjustment I feel
> like I make reed worse.
Have you looked up the myriad YouTube videos about reed adjustment. The problem, of course, is that everyone seems to have a different approach and the process may seem confusing, but each of the video creators must feel that their method helps improve their reeds or they wouldn't have posted their video.
If you watch enough, or read the reed adjustment chapters of any book about clarinet playing, there will be enough basic information to give you hints about what you're doing wrong. So many times all that's really wrong with a reed is poor balance, and just learning to correct that can improve a lot of reeds you think are stuffy. Tom's video instruction on using ATG is one place to start. It isn't so important how you remove material, but more about where you remove it and how much you remove.
Working with reeds that are deliberately too stiff with the goal of, in effect, re-profiling them is harder than balancing, so you should try to improve your balancing skill first.
I don't remember from your older posts whether you're a student and working with a teacher or out of school. There's no real substitute for having a lesson or two with someone who is good at reed adjustment and can answer questions and try the reeds you've "made worse" to see what's wrong with them.
Learning how to "fix" reeds is far more realistic than waiting or hoping for Vandoren to re-calibrate their specs and fill in the quarter strengths you want.
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-10-16 00:22
Attachment: ATG sanding block.jpg (27k)
Ed wrote:
> I always thought that the true benefit of the ATG is not really
> about the device itself, but that he has a methodical way of
> testing and working on reeds. Often people can approach reed
> work in a somewhat haphazard style.
First off a disclaimer. In no way to I profit from sales of any Ridenour product, including the ATG method.
*For me* I could not find a reliable method of adjusting reeds until I used this one.
IMHO Ed the system is both about the device and methods. Said device is a sanding block about 3" x 1" in size with the "business side" of the device being proud of the block for about 75% of its centered surface area, for I'll guess an 1/8." I tried to attach a picture.
This design allows the waterproof abrasives (pardon my narrative explanation), which are slightly bigger than the surface area of one side of the sanding block, to form a contour along the long sides of the device, the sandpaper itself held on by a thick rubber band.
As the name of the method implies: ATG, against the grain, users approach the reed from the tip, on the side the mouth contacts, and this contour of the sandpaper helps IMO to move material in the least gouging way possible. Instructional materials guide the user in the various ways to use the device to remove cane from the reed.
Mr. Ridenour is not lying, at least in my case, that the number of reeds that I can turn into extremely strong ones, that prior I'd throw out, has helped by for the device's cost by leaps and bounds.
Of course YMMV.
Post Edited (2025-10-16 00:29)
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