 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-13 19:35
Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1454938103
The horn is a Boosey and Hawkes Edgware model. The seller says, "This is an intermediate clarinet and the equivalent instrument they [Boosey & Hawlkes] produce now is the Buffet E-11 after a consolidation they did in 1981 when they merged the Boosey and Buffet lines. So, this is eesentially equivalent to the Buffet E-11 model they sell now.
Call me a cynic, but I am skeptical of this claim.
My query is this: are there any earlier models that can truly be called "equivalent to the Buffet E-11"? How about a Paris-made wooden Evette made by (not sponsored by) Buffet? Or maybe a W. German made wooden Evette? Or an Evette & Schaeffer (not a master model)?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-13 20:14
The Edgeware would have been a competing model perhaps to the E-11 and the earlier Evette but it would have been a bit different design, i.e. the larger bore that the English used. So it would not be the predecessor to the E-11 nor would it share it's design characteristics. However it probably sold to the same niche in the market, that is the first level step up from a beginner horn. Boosey & Hawkes did produce pretty good quality horns.
The Evettes could be considered legitimate predecessors to the Buffet E-series although there were probably some design changes along the way. I couldn't tell you the equivalent lineups though.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-13 22:21
I have exchanged email with this Seller on a couple of occasions, questioning some his descriptions. He has been very willing to discuss & to correct/adjust his auction descriptions where/when necesary. There is another current description he has that seemed somewhat out of kilter to me, I'll try & report back with it. I am NOT particularly fond of the Edgeware. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-14 14:55
I haven't seen any later Edgwares [named for a section-street in London] than maybe 1970's. They were mediocre IMHO, large-bore I believe, much different from my {Buffet-made} E & S of that time period. Is the E name still in use?? Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-08-14 16:41
My Edgware experience is with earlier models (1947-1957), both wood and hard-rubber models, and all these have been decent instruments (not great, but certainly not bad). Quite acceptable for students/intermediates after a proper re-pad/regulation, and the wood used was quite attractive! But certainly the Edgwares are much different than the Evettes, the earlier of which (those marked "Made in Germany") were made by Schreiber. I don't care for any of the plastic or wood Screiber clarinets I've worked with (I have a couple on my shelf now and I'm not real motivated to restore them!)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mike_M
Date: 2001-08-14 21:39
The seller has almost got it right. This is an intermediate horn. However, this is not in any way (of design) equivalent to an E-11! Dee has it right, the only similarity is that the Edgeware and E-11 are sold in the same market niche.
I hope I don’t offend anyone here, but IMHO the Edgeware is a grotesque waist of fine grenadilla wood (and they did use very nice wood)! My wife’s Edgeware from high school is still in our closet, and it is without a doubt one of the worst wooded clarinet I’ve ever seen. It’s key-work is the main problem: it will not stay in adjustment. I’ve talked to several Edgeware owners who had similar experiences.
We also have an old Evette (Sponsored by Buffet). Not a bad intermediate level instrument overall. But I’ve found that the E-11 has much better tuning. None of these three models are “essentially equivalent”, other than the fact that they are intermediate level instruments.
By the way, I don’t think B&H and Buffet “merged” their lines as the seller says. My impression is that they Buffet took the place of the B&H line. Anyone know for sure?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-15 00:04
B & H bought Buffet in 1986. B & H continued marketing the Buffet horns and dropped or phased out the B & H clarinets. The Buffet horns are still made in the same factories as before the purchase by B & H as B & H bought Buffet lock, stock, and barrel.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-15 01:36
I'm wondering if any of our wonderful techs out there in Sneezyland could comment on the "equivalence" (or lack thereof) of any of the various sorts of Evettes and E&S horns and the current E-11 and E-13 models.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-08-15 20:34
I'm not a tech (wonderful or otherwise) but, based on more than a little digging over the years, the best I've been able to come up with is:
The Evette & Schaeffer is the forerunner to the E13.
The Evette Master Model is the forerunner to the E12.
The (wooden) Evette (in its various guises) is the forerunner to the E11. The line runs: Evette Sponsored by ..., French Evette, German Evette, E11.
I can't figure out where the Evette & Schaeffer Master Model fits in. There is some folklore that E&S Master Models were R13's that failed their final inspection for some cosmetic reason. However, I have not been able to find any difference between an E&S Master Model that I own and a "standard" E&S from about the same time. (And there is some anecdotal evidence that there was a period of time, perhaps serial numbers from 5,000 +/- to 10,000 +/-, when all E&S were designated "Master Models." This could correspond to a change to Caree's polycylindrical bore.) On the other hand, I observe several differences (particularly in the lower joints) between the E&S Master Model and a contemporary R13.
As far as "equivalency" is concerned. There have been numerous design changes over the years so that a 1958 "forerunner" is probably quite different from its 2001 Exx equivalent. However, the location in Buffet's "hierarchy" is equivalent. Also, a German Evette is probably quite similar to an early E11, and a late E&S is probably quite similar to an early E13, though I have no direct evidence. The closest first-hand comparison that I can make is that a 1976 French Evette has some significant design differences from a 1983 (German) E11.
Anybody out there have some additional info?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-15 23:04
No additional info, Jack. The Buffet "E-11" (in it's most recent incarnation) has never had a poly-cylindrical bore. Certainly, any "Master Models" that are found, having been made in the timeframe which is "post-Caree design" (and, thus, _having_ a poly-cylindrical bore) would probably be viewed as much MORE than just anecdotal evidence! It's obvious that you have done your homework -- bravo!
That said, I have never heard of any of the Evette or E&S which had poly-cylindrical bores related to Buffet's actual "blueprint" for the horn.
Does anybody have any information to the CONTRARY? e.g. at some point in time the Poly-bore WAS a (normal) design characteristic, etc.
Best,
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-16 00:39
If you search the bulletin board, you can find a message Mark posted from Francis Kloc of Buffett saying the Master Models were R-13s with cosmetic flaws. I think the keys were of the Evette/E&S line and not R-13, though...
I have an E&S (non-master model), K series, and a made by (not sponsored by) Paris Evette. They are identical except for the wear patterns on the keys, due to the E&S being older. They play the same too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-08-16 05:17
I have seen the message from Francois. Note, however that he says the Evette Master Model, not the E&S Master Model was the rejected R13. Frankly, it doesn't make sense, given that the E&S was the higher-level model. It is possible, however, that Francois simply misspoke himself. Also, while Francois has been with Buffet for many years, he actually joined the company in the mid 70's if my arithmetic is correct and he has lamented the fact that there just aren't any oldtimers still around with first-hand knowledge of these instruments.
The differences between the E&S and the R13 extend beyond the keys. In R13's, at least back to 1963 (my oldest), if you look under the right-hand cluster on the lower joint, you will see that some of the wood has been cut away beneath the keys. No wood has been removed on either of my K10xxx E&S Master Models or two much later (ordinary) K-series E&S's or a 1976 Evette Master Model. (I have a much later E&S Master Model, too, but the lower joint is a replacement and appears to be from an ordinary E&S, so I can't draw any definitive conclusion.) If someone has a K18xxx or later E&S Master Model, they could provide conclusive evidence because any rejection of the R13 on final inspection must have come after the wood had been cut. Also, one of the differences between the R13 and the E&S is the length of the tube on the lower joint sliver key. It is much longer on every E&S (and French Evette) that I own. To fit that key to a rejected R13 would require moving both posts. If the E&S Master Model is an R13 rejected on final inspection, it seems to me that it should have the keys of an R13, not a standard E&S.
An argument against the "rejected R13" theory is the sheer number of E&S Master Models, particularly in the early days of the E&S. It appears that there are several thousand. From what I have seen, it is possible, however, that there was a period of time, most likely during the late 60's or the 70's during which E&S Master Models could have been rejected R13's. Again, if someone out there has an E&S Master Model from this period, we could probably tell rather easily. The evidence convinces me, however, that the early Master Models were not R13's.
That an E&S would resemble an Evette is not surprising to me. If my memory serves, there is a message somewhere in the Klarinet archives to the effect that the primary difference between the two models was that the E&S received more hand finishing than the Evette, which was mostly machined.
I would love to hear from someone who has an E&S Master Model with a serial number above K18000. Maybe we could clear up this mystery.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-16 15:32
Jack --
I really admire your research methodologies. Where'd you learn to do that?
Thanks for shedding so much light on this subject. So, if you were me and had to sell either the E&S or the Evette (a D series from 1971) and they played (for me) more or less identically, which would you keep?
-- C.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-08-18 01:12
Dave S.,
The German-made Evettes were the last, not the earliest. (AFAIK, the earliest were the French made "Sponsored By Buffet" models.) Buffet manufactured Evettes in France until they bought Schreiber und Sohne (or, at least, the factory) around 1978 and they moved production of the Evette there about the same time. So "German" Evettes run from around 1978 to 1982 when Buffet adopted the E11 designation for that model. I've not seen a German Evette but I suspect that they are similar in design to the earliest E11's. If anyone has a wooden German Evette, let me know and we can compare because I have an early E11.
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
