 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-08-29 19:41
It would seem to me that top professional players tend to play on rather hard reeds these days; at any rate, harder than in the past (strength:number 4, which I would call hard). What is the reason for this? -the search for a darker, denser sound?
-a couple of players that played on very soft reeds: Cahuzac, Benny Goodman (I wonder how he managed all those high notes playing on a number 2 reed!) Gervase de Peyer, Tony Coe.
I've said this before: playing on a hard reed is more difficult physically, playing on a soft one, more difficult technically.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: hans
Date: 2025-08-29 20:08
It's an interesting question; is there an award for playing the stiffest reed that we haven't been made aware of?
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-08-29 20:37
I don't think there is a simple answer to the original question. The perceived reed strength is dependent on the mouthpiece facing opening and length.
Put a #2 reed on a mouthpiece with very open and long facing and it may feel harder than #4 reed on a MP with short and closed facing.
Viennese school prefers MPs with long but closed facing so a harder reed is almost a requirement.
Many jazz players in the US use 5JB or even 7JB, that have opening of 1.47mm or 1.7mm (correspondingly), both with long facing length.
I think it would be difficult to play #4 or above reeds (Vandoren bb) on these two MPs. Vandoren's recommended reed strength reflects that:
< https://vandoren.fr/en/clarinet-mouthpieces-comparison/>
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-08-29 20:54
Apparently and from what I've read on here, some teachers in the USA start primary school age beginners on Vandoren blue box 3.
Then it becomes a real contest among their peers as they get older and go to high school as to who can play on the hardest strength reed as in their world, the higher strength number equates to the better player, regardless if they can actually play on them in the true sense of playing.
The old 'hard reeds make a better sound' thing also comes into play - yes it will have a darker sound, but you can get a 'dark' sound with softer reeds by embouchure changes. Some clarinet players have a tone that's so harsh and bright, the oboists get it in the neck for being too loud (which is what I encountered earlier on this week when I was practically subtoning on oboe).
The award of playing on the hardest reed in the world is no reward if it results in pain or physical harm. There are no awards for stubbornness or bragging rights.
I find it much easier to get the high notes on Eb clarinet with the response and dynamic control I want using a Vandoren blue box 2 than a Vandoren 3.
On Bb I use Legere Euro Signature 3.25 and 3 on bass - that's all I need.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-08-29 22:28
What has led to this view that top players have hard set-ups?
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-08-29 23:10
I would actually say I feel the hard reed masochism has lessened over recent years!
More people than ever before playing on medium setups, from my view.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-08-29 23:33
ruben wrote:
... > Cahuzac, Benny Goodman
>
interestingly, Cahuzac I'm to understand, was a double lip player, and Goodman, later in his career, when he started to embrace the classical clarinet genre switched to this embouchure as well...
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-08-29 23:55
Second Try: there is a clear link between playing on softer reeds and playing with double-lip embouchure.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2025-08-30 00:01)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2025-08-30 00:13
Ruben I don’t think so. We really need to stop thinking about soft or hard reeds and focus more on the need for reed flexibility in relation to the mouthpiece. The old French school of Bonade, Rose, Mimart etc all focused on reed flexibility.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2025-08-30 01:26
I've been playing Vandoren 2.5s for 50 years on my 5RV mouthpiece (well, the first 25 on my V360). With a really good one I can reach G above double high C. I guess it all depends on what you're used to and if you spend enough years doing it. Teaching Band I always started kids off on Rico 2s. 2.5s came later. As far as technique goes, yes, I think such things as tonguing can be more difficult on a softer reed, so perhaps you have to be a little more fussy about getting a really good one?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book-- Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2025-08-30 22:05
Attachment: Screenshot 2025-08-30 at 2.03.11 PM.png (675k)
Chris P wrote:
>
> The award of playing on the hardest reed in the world is no
> reward if it results in pain or physical harm. There are no
> awards for stubbornness or bragging rights.
>
> I find it much easier to get the high notes on Eb clarinet with
> the response and dynamic control I want using a Vandoren blue
> box 2 than a Vandoren 3.
>
> On Bb I use Legere Euro Signature 3.25 and 3 on bass - that's
> all I need.
>
On Eb, I use a Bb Euro Signature 3.25 with a 3D printed Barrel that has a cutout to accommodate for the longer reed (see attached pic).
There is a version for that available on on printables for it, but it didn't fit my Bundy so my wife redesigned it...
You can also use a Soprano sax Legere, but they tend to be harder, I had a 3.25 for soprano sax that was too hard for me. I sanded it town on 220 then 800 grit.
Again, it is a combination of the facing ... FWIW my mpc is a Gregory Smith which is excellent but I don't know much more about it.
Post Edited (2025-08-30 22:11)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2025-08-31 09:10
Quote:
What is the reason for this? -the search for a darker, denser sound?
When I was living in NYC, the harder reed thing was very common in the Met Opera Orchestra. Those players felt as though, because the size of the hall and the volume of the strings, they had to play with a lot of oomph (and conductors were frequently asking for more from the winds). On the audition circuit, there's a bit of a herd mentality. So because Ricardo and Steve and others were doing well in orchestra auditions, a lot of students, I think, began copying the approach. In NYC, at least, it was certainly the case.
The bboard, though, isn't an accurate representation of serious clarinet playing in the U.S. Here, I commonly see Clark Fobes, Brad Behn, Tom Ridenour, etc. recommended for setups. They might make great mouthpieces. On the audition circuit, however, the majority of players are playing BD5s, B40lyres, or something similar with 3.5 to 4 reeds. Probably the majority of players with orchestra jobs are playing these setups as well. Contrary to the advice that appears here, these setups are very popular. But they've been popular for the past 15 years or so.
For most of school, I played a B40 lyre with 3.5 or 3.5+ V12s (now I play a Gleichweit mouthpiece that feels pretty similar). You need some resistance when you play; Steve Williamson called it "cooperative resistance." I feel as though these setups give a feeling of resistance into which you can blow in a way that makes response, intonation, and tone color feel very stable and consistent. To be sure, it's not as flexible as a less resistant setup. But when you're playing in an orchestra (in the U.S., at least), for better or worse, the goal is consistency.
(I'll also add, some of the players playing even heavier reeds sand them down a bit during the break in period. So when you hear stories about crazy hard reeds, in some cases, they don't feel as tough to play as you'd think.)
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Author: MikeSF
Date: 2025-08-31 09:22
Since returning to the clarinet after 34 years off, I'm really trying to understand how my rig contributes to my [classical] tone. I've switched to longer facing with shallow tipped mouthpieces. Additionally, I also now appreciate the value of adjusting every reed with a knife, so it's imperative to buy harder reads than necessary, knowing I will scrape away some material. I use Vandoren V12 4 -1/2 now. A soft reed would not even permit high notes from sounding, as my jaw chokes them completely. So, it was a matter of moving to the hardness that gives me the high register tone I want. Unfortunately, that gives me fuzzy chalumeau notes.
For styles that require bends and lip work, such as Jazz and klezmer, a completely different rig is in order.
This is unrelated, but the biggest observation I've made as a full-bodied(220lb) adult male, versus my 120 lbs college kid self, is I have almost unlimited breath capacity by comparison. I can play twice as much with the same stream of air and loudly, which is fun...
Not for the cats though.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-08-31 15:54
I never understood why anyone would prefer any reed much harder than a 3. But around ten years ago I saw that someone was selling a Vytas Krass mouthpiece on SOTW and since Krass had overhauled my Series 10 Selmer I thought I'd give it a try. It's a K.05 – much closer than any other mouthpiece I'd ever played. It sounded rather anemic with the #3 Quebec Cut Legeres I was using at the time and I recalled seeing other players who were critical of Krass pieces.
But I knew that somewhere I had a Rico #4 (I don't know how it turned up in my reed collection!) and when I used that reed I was amazed. The sound was clear and clean, and the reed played easily without having to use excessive breath pressure. I didn't have to make any embouchure adjustments either to achieve a nice consistent "classical" sound from top to bottom. I now use #4¼ Legere French Cuts on that mouthpiece. It's not particularly loud though, and when playing outdoors I use softer reeds on an HS** or Grabner K13.
So late in life I discovered a use for hard reeds. Okay, fine, but that doesn't justify making beginners start out on 3's. Nor does any player accrue merit or display valor simply by playing a hard reed.
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