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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-06-23 06:09
In a recent thread, ruben brought up the topic of tuning (and to which note(s) a music group would best tune to).
That made me remember a lot of bands/wind ensembles/orchestras/jazz bands/honor bands, etc. that I played in as a youngster.
One thing is painfully obvious - we were badly out of tune at all times.
Sure, there was the pretend warm-up period before each rehearsal, where most of the kids were more concerned about intimidating one another than actually warming up or thinking about the music.
Then, there was the tuning - where everyone basically pretended to adjust their instrument...but usually just going to the "default" physical spot they always adjusted to (What is the purpose of the neck cork on a sax? Why - it's to tell you where your "in-tune" compression spot is! Hahahaha!)
I continued to see this even through university, though to a lesser degree.
I've attended a number of high school performances in the past handful of years, and find the problem is still there.
I understand that kids of that age are usually formed by a group ranging from the devoted to the disinterested, so I'm not certain there's a way around it.
I'm curious how those of you who are still teaching youngsters approach this topic with your students. I remember feeling very frustrated with tuning, because it seemed so hopeless in that environment. I could be in tune with the first trumpet, the trombone - maybe even a rare saxophone. That doesn't carry the band, though.
I'm curious what you tell your students to keep them from being discouraged by it.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[edit: fixed a typo]
Post Edited (2025-06-23 06:19)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2025-06-23 21:31
Quote:
I'm curious how those of you who are still teaching youngsters approach this topic with your students. I remember feeling very frustrated with tuning, because it seemed so hopeless in that environment. I could be in tune with the first trumpet, the trombone - maybe even a rare saxophone. That doesn't carry the band, though.
I'm curious what you tell your students to keep them from being discouraged by it.
Tuning is one of the toughest things for wind players to "master." Even very fine players can play out of tune. When Karl Leister was on tour giving masterclasses in the U.S., I saw him play both Brahms sonatas in a recital. He was very sharp, at least 20 cents, for the entire concert and seemingly made no adjustments. Perhaps he didn't bring equipment that would let him play in tune with our pianos. At any rate, everyone plays out of tune.
When I'm coaching a chamber ensemble or an orchestra or band sectional, I'll usually work quite a lot on balance and intonation. In these cases, it's often a result of students not listening properly. One exercise that helps with ensemble listening, which I learned from James Conlon, is to have the part that players need to focus on play rather loudly and everything else play rather softly regardless of the notated dynamic markings. As the softer parts begin to fit in, whether rhythmically, intonationally, and/or expressively, gradually bring the parts back to their notated dynamics. Getting student simply to listen will often fix many issues. Moreover, getting ensemble parts properly balanced will often fix intonation issues.
With one-on-one lessons, though, I usually don't focus a lot on intonation until a student has good fundamentals. Too often, well meaning band directors will complain about intonation ("You're sharp! Drop your jaw!"). And as a result, students develop weird habits, such as slowing and widening the air stream, overly opening the embouchure, shying away from altissimo notes, and so forth. These habits become very tough to fix as students get older.
Once a student has good fundamentals and can produce a resonant and focused tone throughout the various registers and dynamic levels, I'll fuss with intonation. Just a couple of points here: 1.) I think it's important not to sacrifice the resonance, focus, beauty of the tone to play in tune. So a lot of it comes down to fingering choice, pulling out and pushing in parts of the instrument, shading tone holes with fingers, etc. and not a lot of manipulation with the oral cavity and embouchure (though you can do a little with the embouchure). 2.) I think it's important to practice intonation with a tuning device's drone pitches and not with its visual component.
One exercise that I particularly like is to set the drone on whatever pitch you want to practice and play against it a unison. Play 10 to 20 cents sharp and sustain it, play 10 to 20 cents flat and sustain it, and then go back and forth (here, you might need different fingerings to achieve the sharpness and flatness). Finally, end up in the middle, in tune, and sustain it. With this exercise, you begin to build a "muscle memory" of what it feels and sounds like to be sharp and flat. In ensembles, then, when you need to be 15 cents sharp to match the trumpets, you'll be able to recognize that you're flat (to them, that is) and make the necessary adjustments.
I don't do a ton of tuning pure intervals with my students. When you play with piano, you simply need to play every note in tune. And when you play in an orchestra or band, it's better to start from this position and then use your ear to make adjustments as you see fit. This nerdy approach "I have the third here, I need to be x cents flat to be in tune," is too much active thinking. If you can play every note in tune with a drone and you have good ears, you'll play the third where it needs to be. I guess a second, and very big part of this thing, then, is ear training. There are many ear training exercises I do myself, but that's another topic!
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-06-24 00:42
Brycon,
Thanks for sharing those ideas!
I love the idea you attributed to James Conlon!
Speaking for myself (or at least as I see myself at that age), I feel such a simple exercise would have opened my eyes/ears to numerous different things; tuning, intonation, the chord structure, the purpose/role of my part, etc...(at least in the more dedicated groups I was fortunate enough to play in from time to time).
I also like the idea of the 20 cents +/- sustained, then zeroing in to get the ear trained. For individual students, that seems like a great exercise.
A short remembrance:
When I was a freshman in high school marching band, our instructor had drilled one specific formation change over and over. At the end of the move, he'd make us look at where we were on the field, and stressed how important it was that we'd arrive at the same spot next time.
We must have worked on that single move for about half an hour. Then, we were prepared to go back to the beginning of the drill - to incorporate the part we had just practiced towards the end.
I secretly dropped my pencil in my "end" spot so that I'd know exactly where I should stand.
The formation arrived and I stood stoically (belligerently?) on my pencil...about three steps out of alignment from everyone else. I stupidly fought with the instructor over it. "I'm where I'm supposed to be! I left my pencil here!"
Of course I was wrong. I was supposed to be in a specific location in relation to everyone else for the formation to look right. Even if the entire formation was off. Instead - even though I was "right" by instruction...I was the only one who ruined the formation.
In my mind, that's basically how tuning works when playing with a group.
It's wrong to stand on your pencil. Because being the only one that's "right" makes you wrong.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-06-24 06:07
I actually like the idea that it's wrong to "stand on your pencil!" I think many folks have intonation issues simply out of misplaced pride.
There may be an explanation to the Leister sharpness. He had always made a big deal out of the TWO sets of Wurlitzers he uses on international tours, with one being pitched 440 for tuning on this side of the pond. Perhaps there was an issue with the correct set that made it impossible to use in that appearance. I used a straight up German pitched set in the US for 12 years. You can make things "just work" pulled out crazy far at the barrel but it is almost at the breaking point for internal pitch. Leister probably chose the lesser of two evils.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-06-25 23:40
Fuzzy wrote:
> It's wrong to stand on your pencil. Because being the only one
> that's "right" makes you wrong.
That's the crux of my objection to players' using their tuners (with contact mics to be sure their own pitch is being metered) during rehearsals (or even performances) to be sure they're "in tune." Never mind where anyone else's pitch is.
When I rehearse a student group, there are often spots where intonation among the individual players is poor to painful. The wind players immediately want to adjust their head joints or barrels or whatever they use to initially tune, which is impossible for a passage in the middle of a piece (unless it's surrounded by rests). We re-tune the instruments to the original tuning note, then play the offending note or passage again. Of course, it still isn't in tune. The next step is for each of them to go to their next lesson and learn (if they don't already know) how to make an adjustment on the fly. It's one of the most important areas of technique for students to learn.
Karl
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2025-06-26 01:27
Is it hard to tune?
I remember going to an open rehearsal, one that the SF Symphony has on some Thursday mornings, perhaps some 10 years or so ago - cheap tickets and free coffee & donuts.
I don't remember who the guest conductor was but at one point he stopped the orchestra to tune the two flutes. He spent a good deal of time - perhaps 30 seconds or more? getting them to where he liked them. I was flabbergasted - this was a professional orchestra.
Ever since, I don't feel so badly about my tin ear.
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