 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2001-08-11 16:56
Hello All,
A few years ago I started playing my 1956 selmer signet Special again. I originally played it from 1956 to 1958 in grade school and junior high.
The church orchestra I play with has been patient with me (we need all the warm bodies we can get) and playing second clarinet, I'm able to drop out if I start squawking, or playing grossly out of tune. Over the last three or four years I've improved, and a Vandoren M-13 mouthpiece and Eddie Daniel's II ligature have helped considerably. Thanks clarinet grammy.
I recently went "down" to a #2 reed and suddenly I'm able to blow almost every note effortlessly.
Still have to be careful with altissimo g and above, but few 2nd clarinet parts use these a whole lot.
My question is why does a low number reed work so much better for me when Vandoren recommends higher numbers for this mouthpiece.(3.5 and 4 I think)
Should I be happy as a clam that I found my magic combination? Or is there some embouchure strenghthening excercise I should be doing, to develop the ability to use the stronger reeds, and possibly enter clarinetists shangri-la?
Happy for now,
John
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-11 19:49
I use 1.5's or 2's of my strength. I tried a 3 and couldn't get out a single note that didn't break the sound barrier. Small adjustments can make a big difference.
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Author: Whitney C.
Date: 2001-08-11 20:53
Because the reed is thinner, it is vibrating more. That's why the notes come out louder.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-11 21:43
[[ unrelated to you, but related sometimes to your subject matter ]]] We all (females included) have to drop any sort of MACHO MAN things with reed strength. Forget it --- I mean thing about "hey look at me I can play a 4 1/2 reed! That's not something to do --- period. Tough guys don't finish first, necessarily. You want good Chops, not the toughest Chops on the block.
Let's get on with your question --- anything is possible with good control, proper breath support and patience. If you are playing a close mouthpiece made for a Vandy 3 1/2 or 4 ... you aren't going to JUMP HARD continually on a Rico 2 with that mouthpiece. The Reed is going to CLOSE on you if you continually jump on it. At least, that is my experience. BUT, it can be used with patience, control and proper breath support.
Weak reeds play easy --- howwver I don't that continually playing on a weak or weaker reeds is necessarily good for a developing embouchure. Seems like Sherman Friedlander mentioned this in one of his eassays here on Sneezy.
The experts will check in, no doubt.
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-11 21:45
darn, I need a spellchecker BADLY for my essays! mw
ps Mark ... help the infirmed!
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-08-12 02:24
Assuming the same mouthpiece is played, it takes a more fully developed and supporting embouchure to play a medium (3 1/2), more vibrant reed (giving it tonal weight, depth,and ultimate control of response) than it does to play a heavier reed (4), bite, and loosen the embouchure - losing flexibility, suppleness and color.
My experience, my teachers experience, my teachers teachers experience, etc.
G Smith
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Author: Robert Gifford
Date: 2001-08-12 02:31
I used to be in that hey look I'm playing a 5, mentality back when I was in HS. Now I just play on a 3 1/2.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-12 02:54
Greg, if you addressed the issue ---- then there is no doubt that I missed or misunderstood your answer. . John is playing a Vandoren M-13 using Rico 2's. Do you advocate this setup as a measure of that which displays "a medium (3 1/2), more vibrant reed" ? Thanks. mw
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-08-12 04:47
I play a Vandoren 5RV with Vandoren 2.5 strength reeds, which gives me all the nuances I need without getting lockjaw. My teacher tells me that his instructor, Jacques Lancelot, used the same combination. I've tried harder reeds, and yes they give more power but they also give me a headache.
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Author: Whitney C.
Date: 2001-08-12 04:57
You are all so right about the "macho" clarinet player perspective. My boyfriend is always telling people about how he plays a 5 1/2 reed. I used to try harder reeds but now I have found that a 3 is a great combination with my mouthpiece.
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2001-08-12 05:56
A few people I've taken lessons with have wanted me to switch to a harder reed (I play on a 3 or 3/12 V12 reed with a Bay-Gale mp, which is very open) because they say it gives you a bigger sound, and I just can't get a sound out on a harder reed - it's all air. Maybe it's the shape of my mouth or something, I have no idea. I'm studying with David Weber now, if any of you have heard of him, and he is into the attitude of "whatever makes you sound good, keep doing it"...he thinks I sound good on the setup i have now, and I'm happy, so I think its really good advice.
Gretch
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Author: Nick Conner
Date: 2001-08-12 15:51
One important thing that hasn't seemed to have been emphasized here is that each person is different, and the "ideal" setup would differ among people. For instance, I used to bite and use a bunched chin and play on 4's. To fix the problem, I dropped down to 3's and began using a mirror regularly. Now I have a "proper" embouchure, and bite very little or not at all. However, over a year of gradually strengthening my lip muscles, I naturally moved up to 4's again, however retaining my correct embouchure. Conversly, my middle school teacher (a great clarinet player) constantly told us the story of a professional she heard with superb sound quality, who played on 1.5's. Each person will find success with different things, so an odd setup doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong.
Nick Conner
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-12 18:32
Nick, I understand that very well. BUT, you we have to work with a "level playing field"
There are many mouthpieces that are built for #1.5 reeds. I also _understand_ thatg some folks can play ANYTHING ... any setup. However, I aslo DOUBT thatg they will get the optimum sound by stretching the limits of what can be done.
Our discussion here centers around the use of a CLOSE MOUTHPIECE ---- close, as in reeds of higher strength can easily be played with it. SO, is the person you referred to playing #1.5 reeds on a close mouthpiece, m,ade by the manufacturer to (easily) play a #4 reed? We must compare apples to apples. a #1.5 on an open mouthpiece could be quite difficult to blow, actually. AND, if you take some reeds which ared made like trees, nothing will get them to vibrate!
Remember, too, that we have REED STENGHTH CHARTS. A Rico #1.5 is not the equivalent of a #1.5 Vandoren reed. A Glotin #3.5 is not the equivalent of a Vandoren Traditional #3.5.
Great discussion. Let's just make sure that are comparison on setup (when COMPARING) takes into account equivalent setups.
best,
mw
PS I play a Vanforen V-12 #3.5 on a Greg Smith Old Chedville #1. I don't think a Rico #1.5 reed would work well for ANYBODY on this mouthpiece. I used to play #4.0 Vandoren V-12 on a Borbeck mouthpiece. The #4.o reeds don't work well for me with the Smith mouthpiece. I want fluid ... not easy or hard to blow. No extremes.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-12 18:36
YES, everybody is _QUITE_ different. However, there are some things (and setups) that nobody is able to so! Playing #5.5 Vandoren Reeds & biting (& still getting a good sound) is an EXTREME. Please keep in mind that EXTREMES work BOTH directions .... HIGH & LOW!
Best,
mw
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-12 21:55
Like LaVoz 1.5's and no bite at all? I'm investing in other reeds and thicknesses. I haven't explored enough.
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Author: Jerry McD.
Date: 2001-08-12 23:08
John,
This is an excellent subject. I used to play a very 'heavy" setup. I played a Larry Combs LC3 with Vandoren 4.5 or 5 reeds. I had a really good sound with this setup, it was clear, focused and what I would call athletic. However, I had little flexibility. Flexibility and a variety of tonal colors are what you get when you play a little lighter setup. I think this is what Greg was implying with his post. He is a professional that plays many hours a day. I play his Chedeville #1 mouthpiece with a 3.5 reed. The difference from my previous setup is night and day. It's not something that a casual listener could put their fingers on and say "you sound so much better because......" So I would reiterate what was said above regarding the strengths of reeds, don't try and be too macho (been there) and don't get hung up on what others play (been there too). If you're not taking lessons, you might want to take a few to have someone give you some one on one input into this subject. Remember, it is about the sound and nothing else.
Good luck!
Jerry McD.
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Author: 7
Date: 2001-08-13 01:41
I'm very macho. I've given up wood reeds and am now using small sheets of 16 gauge steel. Course blood squirts out my ears and nose when I play, but I sound GREAT!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-13 04:11
Take up Trumpet, give blood at the local Blood Bank, and wear your (free) t-shirt proudly! mw
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-08-13 18:39
As a beginner I started with a weak reed so I could actually get a sound out of the instrument, then as I got more experienced I played harder reeds and then harder reeds until I realized I was playing a tree trunk and there was not much difference between my fortissimo and my pianissimo and that I only had one tone color. Then I moved back to a somewhat less resistant setup and discovered how much more flexibility in volume, tone, I had.
No configuration should be discarded just because it is not what your idol is playing....
-S
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-08-13 19:11
I played M13 with a weak Vandoren 2. You can play a wonderful piano with that, if you are really careful and touch the reed slightly only. But a more forte tone was beyond me. The reed closed too often. Not to say that it not possible, but difficult for sure. Also a forte in the higher parts sounded reedy. I use Vandoren 3 as recommended for that mouthpiece now.
Rene
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Author: Colleen
Date: 2001-08-13 20:05
John,
I have a concern that you are playing on the wrong mouthpiece.
The M-13 is designed for the Buffet R-13 and a stiff reed. The close facing means that anything under Vandoren 3.5 is going to choke off. This is a mouthpiece designed for an advanced player on a professional clarinet. It's not a "student" mouthpiece at all.
My daughter started on the Morgan Pro Tone mouthpiece. It's a hand-faced student mouthpiece (retail about $30). That mouthpiece was great on her plastic Selmer, and designed to use with up to a Vandoren #3 reed, but when she went to the M-13 (shortly after getting the R-13 clarinet) she needed a #3.5 reed. REALLY, a student should stick to equipment configurations as they were intended. Otherwise, there's no way to tell which "mistakes" are yours and which are from bad equipment configurations.
The MOST IMPORTANT equipment is the mouthpiece and reed (period). My daughter got first clarinet part in "advanced" children's Orchestra when she had been playing for less than a year. The second clarinets have 3 and 4 years experience on bad mouthpieces and worn-out reeds. It makes that much difference on the sound produced and control of the instrument.
You need to choose a mouthpiece for your reed... not the other way around. That will give you a decent sound now, and allow you to progress.
-Colleen
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