 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-22 08:48
Hey all, any of you have any leads to refacers who understand that broad limpid old New Orleans sound well? I'd like to have some pieces of mine done to that style. Are there such things as those adjustments, or is it mostly bigger tipped mps and the rest is your throat and playing style?
Thanks!
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-22 22:35
Hi VicBB!
I can't answer your first question regarding leads to refacers, but I can address the second question pertaining to "...bigger tipped mps..."
I know it is not a popular opinion here on the bboard, but I believe the "...bigger tipped mps..." idea to be based more in myth than in practice. I understand that saxophones (especially the larger saxophone members from Tenor on down) gain a lot of freedom with larger openings...however, I've never found the need for larger openings for New Orleans/Trad/Early Jazz clarinet at all.
In fact, I've never heard any of the New Orleans/trad/early jazz players even bring the topic up in masterclasses or instruction they've given others - or even in candid conversation. Reeds? Once. Any such instructive guidance has always been more focused on sound. Most discussion usually revolves around recordings or performances and how "so-and-so" sounded. (Again perhaps in contrast to most discussions on the bboard - the focus of the musicians is almost always on sound...not gear.)
I do understand I have the tendency to understate gear's importance. However, there's a chicken-or-the-egg type of question: Does the style/approach/technique drive you to select specific gear, or does your gear drive you to a specific style/approach/technique?
I'm not certain of the answer for someone just entering a new style, etc. - but after a style/technique/approach has been more or less settled on/learned - gear seems to become less consequential. (I'd love to hear Chris Tyle's thoughts on this.)
(Side note: I sound like "me" whether I'm playing that New Orleans style on Bb Soprano or Bb Bass...or even trumpet or saxophone. If gear was the determining factor (tip opening, etc.) - then I really shouldn't sound like "me" when I switch entire instrument systems.)
Just my personal thoughts,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 00:26
Thanks for your take Fuzzy. I do think you hav a point that its largely the player. Having said that, I also think that certain gear does make getting a certain sound easier. That doesn't mean I can't sound like myself on an r13 given a little time, but my huge 15.3mm bore Selmer RI definitely makes it feel that much nicer in trying to get my sound. The same with mouthpieces. I get my sound much easier on the 5jb and 7jb compare to say, the b45.
Now I guess we have to clarify what is that old New Orleans sound. Is it that its more spread? Is it that its more flexible like the clarinets in Klesmer? Especially in that latter case, I think there's definitely a case to be made that a wider tip opening mp would make getting that flexible sound somewhat easier.
I think we also have to define the shifting taste and sensibilities. When people tell me you could or should use the same setup for jazz and classical and then I realize that their ideal jazz sound is the Eddie danials chamber sound, then I think we are on a slightly different page. If you want to sound like Artie Shaw I don't think you need a huge tip opening, if Eddie Daniels, even less, but if you want to sound like dr. Michael White or Evan CHristopher or Barnie Bigard, then thats another story. Again, I think Bechet woud've sound like Bechet no matter what, but I think even as a fairly inexperienced player, I can tell that closer tipped mouthpieces will allow you a sound thats much closer to the refined small combo sound as to the brash and almost soprano sax like sound that some of us want.
Vic
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-23 01:03
Hi Vic,
Thanks for the clarification...yeah - I interpretted
"...that broad limpid old New Orleans sound..." to mean something different than you had implied.
"...brash and almost soprano sax like sound that some of us want."
(These are opposite statements the way I think of things, so that's probably where I misunderstood.)
Evan Christopher, Barney Bigard, even Edmond Hall and Sidney Bechet...don't personally make me think of large tip openings. I think something like Barney's take on Lament (for Javenette) would be a lot more difficult with a super-wide tip opening. Same with Bechet's Blue Horizon. Do you hear these as wide tip? (Not being argumentative here - honestly asking how you hear them.) Edmond Hall Adam and Evie? Any thoughts you have would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 02:25
Not argumentative at all. I love comparing notes. Yes you are right, I think there's the broad limpid New Orleans sound and there's the revival sound of the later players that tend to be louder. Those guys play more in the higher register than the first gen New Orleans guys too.
To answer your question, yes, the Blue Horizon and Lament does sound wider tipped to me, but again I might be confusing old players with very flexible sound and big vibrato to wide tip openings. One key to that old sound is really making the clarinet so flexible almost like a trombone.
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 02:30
The other thing that I find so illusive and hard to imitate in the tone of the old New Orleans player is that sorta nasallyness in the throat tones. Players like Shaw and Goodman don't have that, not even Pete Fountain. I'm not sure whether thats a Albert system thing or not.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-23 02:31
You could try contacting Mike Lomax- he makes mouthpieces for... clears throat... Woody Allen and I seem to recall HIS setup is super duper open and wide.
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 03:44
Hey Donald, funny you mentioned that. I have an old Link Slant opened up by Mike to 1.58. I think I still prefer my 7jb, but that piece is great too, perhaps a bit more refined than the Vandoren.
Dan, thanks for that. I think there's more than one New Orleans tone that I like, but thats certainly one of it. Very fluid and flexible, and that exaggerated nassally tone that I was talking about could be her in the beginning of his solo.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-23 05:29
Hi VicBB,
Thanks for the responses!
I think quite a few (most?) of the early clarinetists actually did play high register to project out over the loud trumpets. Leon Roppolo, Johnny Dodds, etc. all played quite high. However, there seems to be some moment in the timeline of the music where clarinetists became almost reluctant to embrace the chalumeau register...which is sorta sad. Because while Dodds, Bigard, etc. played a lot of high notes, they also recorded a lot in the mid/lower registers.
As for Woody's sound in that clip...I always think of that as one of the revival sounds from the 60s (even though it was probaby earlier than that). It seems that one or two of the New Orleans folks who played with/in Preservation Hall had similar sounds (Willie Humphrey might be one - I'd have to go listen again).
As for simple system/albert/improved albert, etc. Yeah - I guess in a way you can attribute certain sounds to that - but mainly because of the sonority or way certain fingerings can be sounded.
I've played Albert since 2007 or so. Overall, I'd say (again) that you sound like you sound regardless. (One day, I had prepared a Boehm to give to one of our nephews...and I was play testing it. My wife was dumbfounded when she walked into the room because she hadn't realized I wasn't playing my usual clarinet - she said it sounded indistinguishable from my Albert).
Having said that - I do think a player CAN choose to embrace certain tonal qualities that stand out (as you said...easier) on the Albert/Simple System clarinets. Doing finger slides/bending etc. can feel more comfortable on Alberts, etc. So - while it isn't necessarily the Albert that can give you the sound...it can make that sound a little easier to achieve...maybe?
As a side note from earlier: That's interesting that we hear Blue Horizon and Lament so differently. That's just not a sound I've ever thought of as having an open tip. I find it interesting to think about! I'll listen again and see if I can hear what you hear.
Who are your favorite players still playing today?
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 06:50
All very interesting observations. It just goes to show how perceptions differ from person to person. I guess you are right that old players play high too, but I just notice their lows so much more because some revival players play even less lows. Now that I think about it, while some old players got that very big fussy low like on Blue Horizon, their highs tend to be quite reedy and somewhat thin, take Johnny Dodd's intro on Perdido street Blues, and, I think thats Bigard, on East St. Louis Toodle o. The tone of that solo is pretty thin too.
I maybe should give simple system more chance, but I've gotten my hand on a Conn hard rubber one from the 20s and the ergos are terrible for my fingers.
As to players that I like now. Theoretically, I like the sound of Evan Christopher and Dr. Michael White, but actually found myself listening to the old guys like Edmond Hall, George Lewis or Bigard more. Also check out the Rex Stuart album, late date. Buster Bailey sounds amazing on that. There's also this less known French player name Alain Marquette that sounds incredibly fluidy on Boehm. Now that you make me think about it. I think the thing that makes me actually like a jazz clarinetist most is their blues feel and fluidy. I've read somewhere before that some old clarinetists play their horn like a fiddle, and another place that they lip their horn like brass player, hence my trombone comment earlier and I think those sentiments represent my taste pretty well.
What are some of your favorite players?
Vic
Post Edited (2025-03-23 06:53)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-23 08:02
Hi Vic!
An interesting note about the thin highs...I was discussing this with one of the mainstay New Orleans clarinetists five or six years ago. He used Johnny Dodds as an example and we listened to a recording (I've come up empty as to which tune it was right now), but he said, "Dodds was agressive...you can't hear it very well on the recording, but here's how he played it..." and he tore into the line. The obviousness of what he said and demonstrated made an immediate impact on me. It was pretty clear I hadn't interpretted some of those old, weak recordings very well.
Since that time, I've changed my mind a bit - now thinking that perhaps the recorded version is even more lacking than I had originally thought when compared to the live - yet it made me listen more closely to that aspect...and the personalities of the players (and the sound they probably actually made live) is more alive to me now.
My personal turning point - coming back to jazz seriously, was started due to Bob Wilber of all people. He played a few tunes (unaccompanied soprano Clarinet) just a handful of steps away from me, and I was spellbound by the sound. Unlike anything I had ever heard in person before.
So - while I wouldn't say he's one of my "favorites" - he definitely helped usher me to where I am today.
I have a lot of favorites (various different sound concepts):
Tim Laughlin
Tom Fisher
James Evans
Evan Christopher
Dan Levinson
Otis Bazoon
Orange Kellin (younger-to-mid-years)
Jonathan Doyle
Craig Flory
John Otto
..................
Those are the more recent voices and I feel badly for leaving many out.
I love the old folks though - Dodds, Bigard, Bechet, et al - there's actually one musician that blows me away - and I believe he is lesser known. I think his primary instrument was saxophone too - which baffles my mind. His name is
Lester Bouchon - my exposure to him came from some work with Sharkey Bonano and Santo Pecora...I wish I had more of his work in my library.
Another (what used-to-be "lesser-known" name to me) is Raymond Burke. Quite a character, and quite a unique sound. Once George Girard was asked if he'd like Raymond in his band and he responded with something to the effect, "Gee, that would be swell! But then we'd still need a clarinet player!" (Because Raymond didn't play the standard clarinet role).
My favorite is probably Irving Fazola when he was with the Crosby band - I can't believe the ideas he originated at such a relatively "young" age - I still can't get my mind to think the way he did!
SIDE NOTE:
I remember hearing Alain Marquet before, but went back to listen again after you brought him up...he really does have more of a soprano saxophone sound, doesn't he?! Very interesting.
Thanks for the discussion today, it's always a pleasure to chat with those having an interest in this music - there's so much fun to be had with this type of music - and so many options!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 09:07
Wow, those ar some new names that I really have to check out. Thanks for that! You know, I quite like Bob Wilbur's sax playing, but I felt like his clarinet playing, or I could be confusing that with Kenny Davern because they record together so much has this what I call more run of the mill swing sound, think Alan Vache, Ken Pleplowsky etc. Not bad, but it isn't that mythical New Orleans sound I have in mind thats so illusive.
Now that you speak all of that, I'd love to hear your playing. You got such depth of knowledge and influence that I think your tone would be amazing too. Do you have any records of yourself. Also whats your setup?
Its also lovely here having this discussion about such a niche topic. They don't come by easily. Also pardon for my English at times, I'm Thai and English is my second language. I feel a little bad sometimes seeing such long and thoughtful replies from people to fire back with my own terse one.
Vic
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2025-03-23 14:45
Here's a BBoard article about Pete Fountain: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=447491&t=447475. His Leblanc clarinet had a bore of 15.00 mm, and his crystal mouthpiece had a tip opening of 1.14 mm. I can't find the facing length, but I think it was medium.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-23 19:45
Me too, Philip...me too!
I'd say "folks like seabreeze are a dying breed," but that ain't true - Seabreeze is something special....a one of a kind.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-23 20:09
I read his post on old threats before, is he still around?
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2025-03-23 20:46
playing Dixieland and new Orleans style blues clarinet is mor e a function of attitude than equipment.. brilharts ottolink lakey and vandoren 5jb help get the job done but when it comes to reeds the rico plasticover is king! . big increase in volume and edge where needed. i discovered these playing clarinet parts in big band. of course a large bore selmer or older conn or leblanc helps a lot also. i suppose a bosey hawks 1010 might fill this bill also but i have yet to play one.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-24 04:03
Hi VicBB,
I'm hoping to have a chance to respond fully a little later...but in the meantime...I wanted to share one my favorite Benny Goodman clips (because this isn't what Benny usually sounds like to me):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsiczuYwy1s
Benny's solo starts around the 1:28 mark.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-24 04:59
Fuzzy, thanks for the clip. Tonally, I think he sounds pretty similar to what I'm familiar with, but that solo was amazingly lyrical. I wonder how do you think he sounds different in this one?
Have a great Sunday evening!
Vic
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-24 05:47
Hi Vic -
For me, his sound is pretty much "Benny" at the beginning, but when he gets to the accented syncopated part, I think he sounds a little less like the Benny we're used to tonally - hinting at a little looser technique. (Maybe its just me...could be!)
Going back to someone you mentioned: Evan Christopher...
Do you hear a difference in the tonal qualities between his recording of Waltz for All Souls (especially the second half) and what he projects in the live recording at Marciac? Marciac
To me - they both sound like Evan - but vastly different sound concepts (of course the style is obviously different too). I can hear certain root similarities in sound/tone from time to time between the examples - but overall I feel like these sounds are very different - just different tools in his toolbox, and he can pull out whatever he wants to use for whichever occasion. For me, what I hear in the Benny clip is similarly different from what I generally think of as "Benny."
(If any of that makes sense at all!) Hahaha!
Earlier, you mentioned Pete Fountain's sound. I agree - it isn't the "old New Orleans" sound...but it is definitely "Pete's Sound" - I don't know if I heard him go outside of his sound much on more than one or two recordings. I think Pete always must've sounded like Pete!
Well, I have a busy week ahead, but I'll try to pop in and check the bboard as I can. I've sure appreciated this thread!
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: VicBB
Date: 2025-03-25 09:38
Fuzzy, I think that with the first link, it is one of the closest that someone has taken the clarinet sound to sound operatic in my opinion. I have mix feelings about that. He definitely sounds different in the second link, but my impression is that he isn't trying too hard to project, rather preferring largely his original tone and I think, use mcking liberally. I guess with older setups and records, you tend to get that fussier sound like slow tunes and slow blues, but with fast tunes, the tone lost its hairiness and becomes more straight forward as the player tries to project more, but with modern setups, the player has the artistic choice to Mic their setup, so Eddie Danials can sound like him in a large hall or Christopher can still sound broad and fussy while being loud at the same time. Personally, if I can help it, I like to play without mics. Theres a certain satisfaction in belting out the horn as loud as you can. There's a certain beautiful grittiness to that sound.
Philip, to me Ketchens does have a more virtuosic style reminiscent of the mid century revival players or earlier white players like Pete Fountain or Irving Fazola, although Fazola is way way smoother and flowy than some of the later white players. She's even more acrobatic than those guys at times, which may not be to everybody's taste. Fuzzy, whats your take on her tone? On that note, do you think there's a certain racial divide, especially in the old days where things are segregated, therefore difference in education and musical influences show much more clearly? I hear Fazola's sound as being somewhat similar but not the same to the early black players, relaxed and meandering, but less bluesy, Fountain also followed in his foot steps but sounding less like the black players than Fazola.
Have a great week!
Vic
Post Edited (2025-03-25 09:54)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-03-25 12:48
When I met Evan Christopher a few years ago, he was playing an Albert C clarinet which had been restored by Vytas Krass. Which makes me think that Vytas might be a good source of information, as he is also a well-respected mouthpiece maker and refacer. However, he recently lost both his home and his shop in a tragic fire, and until we see some indication that he's returned to active participation in the clarinet community it would be best not to be intrusive. (I looked, but was unable to find any crowd-sourced relief fund set up for him and his wife.)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-03-26 05:53
Hi VicBB -
Thanks for the thoughtful listen and for sharing your thoughts!
As per the diffuse sound - I believe the sound is accurate to what it would sound like in person without microphone. It is fairly quiet - and thus (unless in a very intimate venue) would require amplification.
You have great ears.
Evan has played an Improved Selmer for quite a while (actually a handful of them). I'd have to check...but I believe both of the tunes I shared were played on the same instrument.
I agree with your points pertaining to volume being a key point in the difference of sound/tone - but I feel it is much more than that too.
Here's another clip of Evan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQa3K2zMQ8 - I think he pretty well nails that early New Orleans sound in this one (he's using an improved Selmer model here too.) Side note: Ricky Alexander, playing Tenor here, is an amazing clarinetist too. Dennis Lichtman is worth a listen as well while we're on the topic of New York musicians - he and Evan Arntzen.
Back to Evan C's sound in the previous clip:
So much of the sound has to do with embouchure changes, vibrato, growl (or taking the tone just to the edge of control), etc. This is one reason I put so little importance in gear.
But earlier, you asked what I play. I play an 1898 Conn Albert. I use a Pete Fountain Crystal (made by Pomerico). This is a medium to closed mouthpiece by my understanding. I use reeds in the range of 2 1/2 - 3 Marca Superiour (which run a little harder than Vandorens - at least when I made the switch a number of years back, that's what I found). I use 3's at sea level, and 2 1/2's at elevation where I live. Before that, I played a Leblanc L200 with concert mouthpieces. I didn't change for any reason other than I was asked to rebuild the Albert and provide a demonstration of the instrument. In learning to play Albert for the presentation, it became "fun" to play...so I stayed with the Albert. (Eventually, it became very difficult for me to go back to Boehm because there are so many touch pieces which are easy to bump open.) So - even my story on how/why I changed gear is almost gear-agnostic. Haha!
As per Doreen's tone. I love it. I'm not a huge fan of her technique - but I've bought lots of her albums and support her whole-heartedly. She's a great performer! One of the nicest people you'll ever meet. I admire her greatly.
Race definitely played a role at the time of early jazz (and beyond)...but not just between black and white.
The history of the social role of the "halls" in New Orleans is interesting too...and ties in with how music was used in the society. There was a lot of legit music too.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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