 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-15 20:19
In another thread, which I don't want to hijack, about golden era clarinets, forum member David Kinder quoted a line from Michael Lowenstern's Earspasm website that I remember reading prior, and that has intrigued me.
Now, don't get me wrong, Mike's, I think, a good guy and I buy from him, recommending you do too. In fact cudos to him for sending his new instrument stock out to have it brought up to (echem) new standard: my tongue-in-cheek being directed in frustration to manufacturers who, IMHO, like Buffet, could and should do a better job at the factory of quality control, and praise of shops like Yamaha that seem to. Unlike many other dealers who don't, Mike's got to incur expense for doing this, which of course adversely effects his bottom line.
Perhaps in the day of internet instrument sales Mike's come to appreciate the importance of instruments being more closely comparable commodities, given the prospective buyer's inability to show up at a "brick and mortar," and try 6 instruments; not to mention the cost of return shipping (even if at a customer's expense) in such a process.
Then again, these might also be the somewhat biased words for someone looking to sell his wares sight unseen on the internet....not that I blame him.
With all this preamble aside, what do you think? Do you agree that it's more about setting up new professional instrument stock that makes them consistent, or is there enough variability in things like the wood, that mother nature introduces, despite that greater mechanization (and presumed consistency) of the build from 50 years ago that a clarinet's "personality," much like that of us higher order primates, is both nature and nurture, or maybe mostly nature?
It was common for professionals with new Buffet instruments to send them off to Brannen Woodwinds in the past, so much so, that Brannenized was all but a made up verb in clarinet circles. 
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-15 21:16
In short.....no
However, you DO want the maximum performance out of your horn. I had Brannenized every one of my top horns and never regretted it. The main part of the Brannen magic was getting spring tensions just right. For example the rings don't need much tension at all, so getting that "light" with a thicker oil makes them smooth as butter. The other keys are more an art to get right. It's safe to say that MOST if not ALL new horns have keys that have too much spring tension, particularly on the sliver keys......and often the side keys. You want enough tension to prevent them from "blowing open" but not really much more than that. Getting this even throughout the horn makes technique much more facile.
I have only heard about Mike's work, and it has all been highly complementary.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-16 01:57
Paul Aviles wrote:
> In short.....no
>
>
> However, you DO want the maximum performance out of your horn.
> I had Brannenized every one of my top horns and never regretted
> it. The main part of the Brannen magic was getting spring
> tensions just right. For example the rings don't need much
> tension at all, so getting that "light" with a thicker oil
> makes them smooth as butter. The other keys are more an art to
> get right. It's safe to say that MOST if not ALL new horns
> have keys that have too much spring tension, particularly on
> the sliver keys......and often the side keys. You want enough
> tension to prevent them from "blowing open" but not really
> much more than that. Getting this even throughout the horn
> makes technique much more facile.
>
>
> I have only heard about Mike's work, and it has all been highly
> complementary.
>
>
>
> ............Paul Aviles
>
When Mike says on his website that he sends his horns upstate (NY) to have "Miles" work on them, I suspect that it probably isn't going too far out on a limb to say that he's having Miles DeCastro https://www.potsdam.edu/about/directory/faculty/decastmd work on them.
Miles teaches instrument repair at Crane (i.e. SUNY Potsdam) School of Music and I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's really good at what he does.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2025-03-16 02:25
Michael Lowenstern's quote must be substantially true: pads with leaks or poor venting will change the response of an instrument very much for the worse. So fixing those things on a poorly set up instrument will definitely close most of the gap with one in top condition. But will they then be indistinguishable? I doubt it. The reason I say this is just based on barrels. I've many times had the experience of swapping standard Buffet barrels for another of allegedly the same type and having the sound and feel of the instrument change. I had the same experience when I visited Peter Eaton to select a new barrel for an Eaton clarinet: he gave me a dozen freshly made examples and they varied a great deal. I remarked on this to him and he said it was always so, and that this was down to the resonance of different pieces of wood. In that case, the wood of the whole instrument must matter, and so it wouldn't be surprising if some instruments out of a batch had special qualities, however well set up they all were.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-03-16 04:30
My R13 A clarinet, which is one of the best As I’ve ever played, was overhauled by Peter Spriggs by a previous owner, and I credit that significantly with why it is so good. (Brannenized? Spriggsified?). Despite being a tech myself, I have felt absolutely no need to change anything on it in my ownership beyond replacing aged out pads as they die, and standard COA servicing.
Does anyone have any old ad materials or receipts stating exactly what Brannen did in one of their famous overhauls?
As far as my thoughts to the original topic, I think that to a certain level the variance between instruments can be limited by a good setup. However, the more picky you get, the more difference you will find between examples.
Not sure if hat Lowenstern does these days, but in the past he would go to the manufacturer and test out many instruments, and select from there the exact ones he wanted to take home and sell himself (still after having them set up).
I think I would be confident that any instrument he is selling is a good example, but that doesn’t necessarily mean ALL examples of that model are equal…
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-16 18:57
I wonder if this consistency difference is reduced (or can be reduce) in well setup Buffet Greenline instruments, or in say, Ridenour hard rubber instruments.
I'm not suggesting them better (or worse) than their true wood counterparts, just simply that greater degrees of quality control might be able to be brought to the production process of these instruments' bodies than that created by chance and natural variability by mother nature in pure wood (e.g. black wood, mopane) sourced instruments.
In deference to Mike Lowenstern, the new instruments for sale he has tooled to reach their full potential aren't just random ones but initially hand selected: so I suspect that he's starting with good stock....which doesn't mean, even if they all play very well that they also play very consistently I suppose.
Post Edited (2025-03-16 19:00)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-03-17 12:41
"Once set up there is almost no difference between two model clarinets"
What is "almost no difference" for one person is "huge difference" for another...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-17 17:30
Yes.......on the Greenline R13.
I had a few opportunities to test out 3-5 Greenline R13s at a time coming into the inventory of a US Army Band. They were quite consistent. Still a little variance on a micro resistance/tuning level, but for the most part very good and very close to each other. Oh and they weren't "set up," they were just new, out of the box.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-17 20:22
m1964 wrote:
> "Once set up there is almost no difference between two model
> clarinets"
>
> What is "almost no difference" for one person is "huge
> difference" for another...
Agreed....with deference to the fact that the quote came from Lowenstern: a professional musician who, at least from his Youtube videos, demonstrates (I say complementarily, not disparagingly) an IMHO very acute sense of differences in all things clarinet.
I suppose professionals can also experience vast differences in their opinion of an instrument, if not miss spotting an attribute, good or bad, overlooked by the inexperienced player/shopper.
Of course, to my original point, as the man also profiting from an at least in part internet instrument sales business--not that I am suggesting his words untrue or even intentionally deceptive or wrong--great degrees in consistency among individual instruments of the same brand..
...not unlike the Oreo cookies we buy "sight unseen" without first opening the package, confident that Nabisco quality control is such that we couldn't tell, partaking in the snack, where it was bought....
are attributes of instrument sales needed, or at least claimed in the internet age.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-03-17 23:03
Paul Aviles wrote:
“Yes.......on the Greenline R13.
I had a few opportunities to test out 3-5 Greenline R13s at a time coming into the inventory of a US Army Band. They were quite consistent. Still a little variance on a micro resistance/tuning level, but for the most part very good and very close to each other. Oh and they weren't "set up," they were just new, out of the box.”
The GL material is more dense comparing to wood and is not subjected to variations like grenadilla from moisture and other environmental factors.
Thus, it allows more precise manufacturing. I’d think that tone holes on a GL Buffet would not need refacing while even brand new clarinets sometimes require (all makes).
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-17 23:47
A story worth passing on re tone holes- one persons "acceptable" is another persons reject. (the "person" being a repair tech)
- a clarinet we own was passed on to a local tech, after a complete restoration by a US business, and he pronounced that the "tone holes were good but the pads needed re-seating". Tinkering with the pads didn't achieve much.
- this instrument then went south to Vanguard Orchestral, who stripped the instrument and told us the tone holes were in terrible condition (AND sent photographs zooming in on blemishes etc). Fixing these made a HUGE improvement to playability.
- prior to this being done this clarinet had gone past 2 respected repair techs who ignored or didn't notice the problem.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-18 00:22
donald wrote:
> A story worth passing on re tone holes- one persons
> "acceptable" is another persons reject. (the "person" being a
> repair tech)
> - a clarinet we own was passed on to a local tech, after a
> complete restoration by a US business, and he pronounced that
> the "tone holes were good but the pads needed re-seating".
> Tinkering with the pads didn't achieve much.
> - this instrument then went south to Vanguard Orchestral, who
> stripped the instrument and told us the tone holes were in
> terrible condition (AND sent photographs zooming in on
> blemishes etc). Fixing these made a HUGE improvement to
> playability.
> - prior to this being done this clarinet had gone past 2
> respected repair techs who ignored or didn't notice the
> problem.
Well said. To @m1964's point, the difference in quality might not simply differ among people, but between different groups of people, to wit: experienced repair techs versus those perhaps more experienced in play then repair, the latter group apt maybe to more likely go by playability than "fit and finish."
Of course this not to say that either group would consider only one of these two attributes or that these two group's strengths are anything but not mutually exclusive: some great techs also being (or perhaps in part being great techs because they are) great players, and vice versa.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-03-18 02:46
The play-ability of an instrument is dependent on fit and finish: if a new clarinet has one tone hole that is not perfect it will be too resistive.
I recently had an issue when my relatively "new" clarinet developed a leak due to a slight grain on top of a tone hole. The joint sealed 100% when I bought it.
Three month later and it became slightly resistive (but was still very playable).
So, when choosing a new clarinet from a few examples, it is possible to reject a good instrument that is not sealing well because it would feel more resistant than others.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-18 04:16
One more comment on the Greenline.
My thought about what makes them more "constant," is that once the machining and final factory adjustments are done, the material does not then alter in shape to the ravages of humidity and temperature before we finally try them out and buy them. This is why if I were to pursue utility horns in the future (Eb and/or bass) I would get them in a synthetic material (to include the hard rubber offerings as well).
I am also a fan of getting the "fittings" of the pads and horn just right too. Certainly you experience a huge difference between horns with standard pads (what we used to call fish skin) and cork.......or Valentino Masters, or QRP....etc.
however
In my experience once you hit a certain level of a really good seal, though you might achieve a slight bit more with microscopic treatment of the tone holes and more exotic pad materials, you don't find a huge improvement as described above moving from one decent version to another. So I would think that that particular story above involved a (relatively) massive "problem" tone hole that got overlooked in some unfortunate manner. Too bad about all the overhauls. One GOOD tech should have gotten that right the first time.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-18 16:24
Paul wrote
"In my experience once you hit a certain level of a really good seal, though you might achieve a slight bit more with microscopic treatment of the tone holes and more exotic pad materials, you don't find a huge improvement as described above moving from one decent version to another. So I would think that that particular story above involved a (relatively) massive "problem" tone hole that got overlooked in some unfortunate manner. Too bad about all the overhauls. One GOOD tech should have gotten that right the first time."
It's not entirely clear which "story above" you are referring to but I assume mine due to the fact that you end up making the point that my story was intended to illustrate.... it's great that you can read, thanks for helping others with this task, I don't know what we'd do without you.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-18 16:34
As for Michael Lowenstern's original premise, it's a bit silly. He's a nice guy and clearly has a certain degree of altruistic motive alongside wanting to run a business, but it's just a silly thing to say.
Many many players will have anecdotes about instruments that they bought for this or that quality and then upon playing it for an extended period discovered shortcomings that were NOT able to be changed/remedied by customisation or "set up". To relate even my own experiences here would be tiresome.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-18 19:34
m1964 wrote:
> The play-ability of an instrument is dependent on fit and
> finish: if a new clarinet has one tone hole that is not perfect
> it will be too resistive.
I completely agree.
Perhaps I should take a second crack at my point.
The premise of this thread, as I referenced initially, was that perhaps an instrument, like us human beings, has components of nature and nurture within it. The nurture being the fit and finish, and the nature being say some aspect of the material it's made of, and if organic, the right balance from mother nature that somehow, to reference Mr. Peacock's point above, among a choice of supposedly closely machined to be similar barrels, the player can experience noticeable difference.
I contend that the astute repair tech, while noticing nature and nurture must focus their efforts and the later, as that's what they best can control, assuming their repairing rather than picking instruments to purchase. And that the player tends more to stick the instrument in their mouth and blow, noting response first before focusing on the nurture aspects (fit and finish) to either verify a well playing instrument worthy of purchase because of additionally solid mechanics, or to seek to identify the cause of problems with play in mechanical deficiency.
Each set of people, good repair person and good player alike doesn't forsake play for mechanics or vice versa, just tends to focus more on one.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-18 20:06
Ok the most serious answer is that each instrument even of the same manufacturer, same model and same batch (if there is such a thing) has its own unique tuning and resistance characteristics. This is why “back in the day” one would try as many R13s as possible before choosing one. Now that also has a LOT to do with HOW each of us plays (amount of of air per note per volume versus embouchure “pressure”). One players best clarinet out of a bunch most likely is the next person’s worst. This is why I never accepted the notion of “selecting” a clarinet for a client. Maybe you can weed out some obvious problem (I did try a Uebel Superior with an unresolvable tuning problem) but one man’s treasure……….
Now you start talking about other models and other brands, you have so many other variables. Fortunately, there are many broad tendencies that remain fairly constant. But for what it’s worth you DO get a horn’s best performance when it seals great and the key movement is fluid with no unnecessary resistances.
When I check horns the first thing I do is a negative pressure test to determine how well they seal. If there is an issue I have to guesstimate how that affects the rest of the play test.
All horns ARE different……. like people.
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-19 01:52
It's actually a really stupid waste of time that we have even spent 5min debating this. ML is an "ok guy" but that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-19 23:56
donald wrote:
> It's actually a really stupid waste of time that we have even
> spent 5min debating this. ML is an "ok guy" but that's one of
> the dumbest things I've heard in a long time.
FWIW I checked the earspasm website and no longer so the copy that is the subject of this thread.
It is entirely possible I missed it.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-03-20 02:05
SecondTry wrote:
> donald wrote:
>
> > It's actually a really stupid waste of time that we have even
> > spent 5min debating this. ML is an "ok guy" but that's one of
> > the dumbest things I've heard in a long time.
>
>
> FWIW I checked the earspasm website and no longer so the copy
> that is the subject of this thread.
>
> It is entirely possible I missed it.
https://www.earspasm.com/collections/clarinets
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren BD5 HD 13-series mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren #4 Blue-box reeds
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-20 04:29
David H. Kinder wrote:
> SecondTry wrote:
>
> > donald wrote:
> >
> > > It's actually a really stupid waste of time that we have
> even
> > > spent 5min debating this. ML is an "ok guy" but that's one
> of
> > > the dumbest things I've heard in a long time.
> >
> >
> > FWIW I checked the earspasm website and no longer so the copy
> > that is the subject of this thread.
> >
> > It is entirely possible I missed it.
>
> https://www.earspasm.com/collections/clarinets
>
https://youtu.be/ffCEr327W44?si=Vj0HuZUQH7cX4CfX&t=30
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2025-03-20 05:10
Miles De Castro is fantastic and a lovely person.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-20 18:20
cigleris wrote:
> Miles De Castro is fantastic and a lovely person.
>
Always looking to develop new relationships with great repair tech I have a backup R13 I was thinking of getting overhauled and reasoned that Miles--if used by Mike Lowenstern, not to mention Backun, that he's probably good. Does anyone have thoughts on his work?
Peter: I assume you know that Miles does repairs for Backun in North America. Maybe this is news to you https://www.northcountrywinds.com/blogs/news/welcome-to-north-country-winds. I know that you know that your a Backun artist. https://backunmusical.com/blogs/artists/peter-cigleris
Please disclose stuff like this. In no way do I think this fact depricates Miles' reputation (or yours) but stuff like this IMHO passes the test that makes it worthy for disclosure. To rephrase, when it doubt, disclose. I know you only commented on his personality, but still.
Post Edited (2025-03-20 18:35)
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Author: mozartklar
Date: 2025-03-20 19:41
This is a funny post. Mike Lowenstern is a polymath in the clarinet world but he's also a business man and by all accounts a smart, successful one at that. I think that we're getting into the minutiae a bit here. I don't think that taking the guy to task for laying out his approach and philosophy is productive. I think any pro would tell you that OF COURSE no two clarinets are going to be identical even if they are set-up by a good technician and are the same model. The fact that it even has to be addressed on this thread is pretty laughable.
The whole approach here is to "buy with confidence". You don't have to worry about buying some lemon. The hard work has already been done ahead of time. You can spent your thousands with confidence, AND if something happens during the warranty period, you've got one of the giants in the industry to handle it all.
What a smart and business-like approach!
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-22 21:05
mozartklar wrote:
> This is a funny post. Mike Lowenstern is a polymath in the
> clarinet world but he's also a business man and by all accounts
> a smart, successful one at that. I think that we're getting
> into the minutiae a bit here.
I agree, but I'm not so sure that Mike L's approach is best because those that know better might be turned off by such a statement of equivalency among instruments of the same model once setup that isn't necessarily the case, and those buying from Mike who don't know better, much that caveat emptor does apply, might curtail their instrument search when further exploration might be worth it.
Again, context: I'd rather deal with a guy like Mike who spends the $ bringing his instruments to such high function with Miles, and who makes such claims, than another vendor who does neither. Mike worked in advertising and I guess we should put that into context.
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