 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-02-27 23:46
Why do military band writers and arrangers always insist in having all those screeching clarinets in unison right up in the stratosphere at full tilt? It's an absolute assault on the senses!
Not everything has to be up in the altissimo register all the bloody time. There are other instruments that can cover that range, even though they're often at least a quarter tone sharp when they're up there.
Just because they can, doesn't mean they should.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-02-28 00:52)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-02-28 01:05
Chris P wrote:
> Why do military band writers and arrangers always insist in
> having all those screeching clarinets in unison right up in the
> stratosphere at full tilt? It's an absolute assault on the
> senses!
>
> Not everything has to be up in the altissimo register all the
> bloody time. There are other instruments that can cover that
> range, even though they're often at least a quarter tone sharp
> when they're up there.
>
> Just because they can, doesn't mean they should.
I often wonder the same thing about arrangers and composers of concert band music. And then the conductors complain that we're too loud.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-02-28 01:57
Any links to examples?
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2025-02-28 05:50
To be honest, I never noticed this when viewing a marching band or concert band (military or otherwise). In fact sometimes when I listen to a marching band it seems all I can really hear are brass & percussion.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
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Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
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Post Edited (2025-02-28 05:50)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-02-28 18:27
As Tom H indicates, the high parts for 1st clarinet are not usually prominent in the sound of the band. They're often like filigree decorating a resounding brass edifice. They're demanding in terms of intonation and tone quality, but the major service bands and better college bands handle those challenges with seeming ease. I've a habit of listening to the President's own Marine Band on YT, so maybe I'm spoiled; on top of other considerations, their tempos are, ah, brisk.
One of New England's older bands, the Claremont American Band, is based in a nearby town, and they're mostly amateurs. They play many marches at their summer concerts, with lots of Sousa, Hall, Fillmore and so forth. (Sousa himself conducted on two occasions during tours with his band.) Semper Paratus usually gets programmed once per season, likewise Boston Commandery, and as well as rarities where it's hard to count the ledger lines while sight reading the tiny tattered ancient parts. It's possible their 1st clarinet section's sound occasionally dips below the level that purest contentment might admire, but it's gloriously fun.
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-02-28 19:10
How many clarinets are we talking about here, when considering the aggregate of solo and ripieno parts? Around five perhaps? Of course, if the pieces are performed by community bands which aim to include as many players as possible, then the numbers increase, which can hardly be blamed on composers. And, when playing indoors, the best military players are skilled at playing quietly to suit the acoustic. If community bands want to play military band rep, that’s their choice.
Admittedly, I haven’t done this kind of playing for over thirty years, but when I did, it was in a TA band which twice was rated “excellent” in Kneller Hall inspections, and when I was at school, in a wind orchestra that, more often than not, won the English national competition in the genre.
graham
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-02-28 22:36
Philip Caron wrote:
> As Tom H indicates, the high parts for 1st clarinet are not
> usually prominent in the sound of the band. They're often like
> filigree decorating a resounding brass edifice.
You aren't playing the same music we playing in our wind symphony.
Karl
Post Edited (2025-03-01 00:38)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-02-28 22:42
"The basic instrumentation of Sousa’s band always had at least half again as many woodwind players as brass players, and clarinets made up half of the woodwind section."
David Guion
That's a lot of clarinets!
I wonder if there are violin players who similarly object to the amount of stratospheric lines assigned to them in the music of composers like R. Strauss?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-02-28 22:47
graham wrote:
> How many clarinets are we talking about here, when considering
> the aggregate of solo and ripieno parts? Around five perhaps?
> Of course, if the pieces are performed by community bands which
> aim to include as many players as possible, then the numbers
> increase, which can hardly be blamed on composers. And, when
> playing indoors, the best military players are skilled at
> playing quietly to suit the acoustic. If community bands want
> to play military band rep, that’s their choice.
>
The question was, why do band composers and arrangers write that way, not why do bands have (or don't have) trouble playing what they write.
I don't know if Chris meant to distinguish between music literally for military bands and music written for skilled concert bands. American military bands play all kinds of music from parade marches to serious concert hall repertoire. Whether or not Chris meant "screeching" literally (which characterizes the performance more than the "bandstration"), his point, I think, has to do with composers' and arrangers' uses of clarinets in a great deal of band literature.
Karl
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-03-01 00:31
Of course, I will note that you sometimes hear a clarinet section where the players are playing full out up in that range. Because of projection as well as the tone quality, a section can easily lay back and ride over the top of the group. There should be no concern that you can be heard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-01 00:48
kilo wrote:
> "The basic instrumentation of Sousa’s band always had at
> least half again as many woodwind players as brass players, and
> clarinets made up half of the woodwind section."
Chris has not come back into this thread, so we have to guess what kind of music he was talking about, but I'm not sure if a "Brit" would be referring necessarily to Sousa. And there have been a number of editions of the marches published that are meant to concertize the Marine Band originals. Still, at least the first 2 clarinet parts are often stacked up at the top of the texture along with the flutes and piccolo - more than enough to make the whole thing top-heavy without a lot of adjustment from the podium.
>
> I wonder if there are violin players who similarly object to
> the amount of stratospheric lines assigned to them in the music
> of composers like R. Strauss?
The color is completely different from the sound of a dozen or even 8 or 9 clarinets plus flutes, piccolo and (if one is used) Eb clarinet. Even if the third clarinet part is an octave lower. And tuning on a string instrument is very different from tuning on a keyed wind instrument.
Karl
Post Edited (2025-03-01 00:50)
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-03-01 01:16
Well, if people don’t like the writing, they don’t have to play it. But how it sounds to the audience is a relevant factor for the compositional technique, so I think the comments about how it sounds to the listener are relevant. Of course, if the view is that most of the composers which are played by military bands are fools, that’s a view, but not one that will be universally accepted. There’s no need to play in a band, but in my view, the key consideration is playing in a good enough band to make the best of the composer’s intentions.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-03-01 01:56
Quote:
The color is completely different from the sound of a dozen or even 8 or 9 clarinets plus flutes, piccolo and (if one is used) Eb clarinet.
That's very true. But I always thought that clarinets in wind bands performed much the same function...but not always successfully from an acoustic viewpoint.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-01 01:56
While clarinets are to concert bands as violins are to orchestras, the scoring for frontline clarinets up in the gods may be better suited to outdoor performances or parades, but when you mix different players each with different gear with their own different ideas of tuning, then it's a real earsplitting cacophony to anyone in close proximity. Two players out of tune with each other us bad enough, but when there's five or more ...
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2025-03-01 20:29
Chris P, can you provide an example?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-01 22:36
I don't have to - you can find plenty examples.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-03-02 00:46
"I don't have to - you can find plenty examples."
Disappointing. Claims made without presenting evidence tend to be indistinguishable from fantasies in the claimant's head. Why burden others with proving one's own claims? Normally I automatically turn the page, but Chris P has earned a pass or two.
Anyway, here may be a good example, particularly at 1:43 (but much of the rest is susceptible to screeching by the incautious as well.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntpoFGCu7ww
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-02 20:52
There's more to military band writing than and since Sousa - there's too many military band writers and arrangers to mention, but the trend with the majority of them is they have a range chart as a guide even though what they deduce from that isn't always practical nor always pleasing to the lug'oles.
Sometimes - actually all the time, moderation is best instead of bunging the kitchen sink in with it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2025-03-03 10:37
When I was in the station band in the RAF I played Eb clari. I got quite used to playing in the near-ultrasonic range.
Tony F.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-03-03 14:48
I believe Frederick Fennel deployed 1 player to a part in his Eastman Wind Ensemble. That's one solution.
I was principal clarinet in the National Wind Orchestra of Great Britain when I was young and we simply reduced players in appropriate passages. Sometimes we played with just 1 player to a part in exposed sections.
Another factor is of course the quality of the players and the choice of instruments. My experience with some amateur players is that they don't have a concept of how finely the top octave can be controlled in terms of both dynamic and tuning and simply feel the need to just somehow get the note and that will do!
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2025-03-03 16:13
Fennell doubled the clarinets in the Eastman Wind Ensemble.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-03-03 16:33
What composers didn't use the altissimo part of the clarinet range? Glancing through some excerpts seems to indicate many did use it, at least from later Romantic period on. It's almost like, how else should it be?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-03 16:44
Composers tend to use the altissimo registers in moderation as opposed to all the time.
The problem nowadays is notation software where Copy&Paste is the easy option.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike M
Date: 2025-03-03 17:39
Attachment: Thunderer 1st clar.jpg (188k)
I am sure that most have played the first clarinet part to "The Thunderer". That C section took me a while to get down when I was in high school.
Allegro Chamber Players
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-04 02:33
Chris P wrote:
> There's more to military band writing than and since Sousa -
for sure.
> there's too many military band writers and arrangers to
> mention.
No there's not. Scarcity makes citation difficult, not abundance. You were asked to provide examples (maybe so some here can learn rather than challenge you.) You refused, I did, and you critiqued mine--which is fine.
But I do think you should provide examples, especially when asked and especially when others do, and you cite their limitation.
I have learned a lot from you here, particularly about repair and appreciate that.
This wasn't your finest thread Chris.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-04 18:42
Blimey! I didn't realised I was being marked on the quality of my threads. I'm stating an observation or an experience and there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, even if the world is going to $#!+ left right and centre.
The arrangers are mostly in the RM band service and other military bands based in the UK, so their arrangements aren't always in the public domain. Some band arrangers even use their own copyright and their arrangements of popular songs from stage and screen aren't legal.
The usual trend is to have the solo and 1st clarinets all up in the stratosphere along with flutes and oboes (and piccolos) which is where Copy&Paste is done with vigour, so there's an entire frontline of screeching going on when at full tilt - even the oboe parts can go up to altissimo F and even G in some cases, just because the range chart shows they can do that.
While soaring strings works, that doesn't always translate well to multiple woodwinds because of the tone quality up top. It might work on paper but not in reality.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-03-05 01:00)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-03-04 22:10
My difficulty with this question stems from having no dislike for high clarinet scoring as a listener, because I tend to listen to competent or better performances. To me, clarinets screeching reflects performance shortcomings, not those of scoring or arranging or composing.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-05 08:03
Philip Caron wrote:
> To me, clarinets
> screeching reflects performance shortcomings, not those of
> scoring or arranging or composing.
And to an extent, this is true. The problem begins with the characterization of the clarinets as the violins of the band. Add in the flute and, as Chris complains, the oboes. If you think and write for this group as a composer might for orchestral violins, you create an opportunity for less than stellar bands to sound raucous and unpleasant.
There are, at least in the U.S., only a very few bands of professional skill. Most are wind ensembles, which greatly mitigate the issues Chris raises through not only a high skill level but reduced size, but they tend to play the same music as full bands.
There are university bands with highly skilled players who play with considerable polish, although maybe the most famous (already mentioned) was Fennell's Eastman Wind Ensemble, again, not a full band complement.
The rest of the world of band performance comprises school bands - mainly high school or non-conservatory college ensembles - and community bands.
Can clarinets and upper woodwind sections ever play musically in the Bb5-plus range. Yes, of course. That the Eastman Wind Ensemble or the Cleveland Winds could play that kind of voicing beautifully doesn't mean the local high school or even All-State band in my area can. And composers shouldn't, IMO, write in a way that all but forces the conductor to cut out players routinely to keep textures from becoming gross sounding.
String instruments are more or less infinitely variable in their pitch. Woodwinds are not so flexible. Clarinets (and woodwinds in general) can play musically enough in their high registers if they're professionally competent. But writing high in the clarinet range unselectively for a dozen or more players in a student clarinet section is just looking for trouble.
Should composers avoid the third register altogether? Of course not. But they shouldn't make sustained high, concentrated textures a staple technique, either. Used carefully, high clarinets even in an inexperienced band can produce a musical effect. Used as if they are substituting for a violin section, the result can be wearing and uncomfortable for both the players and the audience.
Karl
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2025-03-05 18:57
Karl said: "There are university bands with highly skilled players who play with considerable polish, although maybe the most famous (already mentioned) was Fennell's Eastman Wind Ensemble, again, not a full band complement."
Quite true - but back in the day there were the University of Michigan bands conducted by William D. Revelli and H. Robert Reynolds which were "full-size" bands of approximately 100 musicians with a compliment of 20-25 clarinets. Intonation, blend, and attention to balance was paramount in their approach to the music. Likely also was playing arrangements and compositions that wouldn't bring out the worst in what has been mentioned in regard to the stratospheric playing of the so-called military bands (which these were definitely not!).
As far as the clarinet section was concerned in these U-M bands, the sound seemed to be on the smallish side, light in quality (if not a bit bright) but incredibly well blended. Those who played in those bands facetiously (?) referred to the term "sucking" to produce the sound (which always seemed to invoke fear to me!). Definitely NOT the kind of clarinet sound most would aspire to but it worked wonderfully in this kind of situation.
Those U-M bands had a full, beautiful, round, well-balanced and polished sound - perhaps this is the reason it was named the University of Michigan Symphony Band.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-03-05 19:01
Good points, Karl. Maybe I've forgotten what bands of my playing experience were like. One gets accustomed to hearing the indicated ideal band sound in one's head and playing **that**, and if that means pianissimo or even temporarily tacit, then that's a matter of course. But still, listening to a recording of the group made later tends to be disappointing.
Makes me wonder what I really sound like, myself.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-05 20:58
Chris P wrote:
> Blimey! I didn't realised I was being marked on the quality of
> my threads.
We're judged by our thoughts and actions, this board facilitating expression of the former. You know that.
I'm stating an observation or an experience and
> there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, even if the
> world is going to $#!+ left right and centre.
There is not only nothing wrong with that but it should never be effected by events outside the confines of this clarinet dialogue, as they are irrelevant.
The issue, as explained to you, was your 1) initial unwillingness to provide requested examples of your claims combined with 2) your critique of the examples others provided in your absence. One of these alone: fine if not ideal. Both: that's IMHO a bridge too far.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-03-05 22:31
Hi Second Try.
Eh, I've gotten by it. I've got a sore place from people in different forums making false claims with no support and then telling questioners to go find it themselves. My knee tends to jerk at it now.
That's not quite the case here. As has been pointed out, what was being referred to is scoring that's very common, that is, transcribing violin parts to clarinets in equal numbers, or blindly applying range charts. Examples are ubiquitous.
Further, Chris P. didn't really find fault with examples that were offered, he more tried to clarify what he was talking about. - Which I didn't get at first either, since I tend to idealize performance. Interesting discussion, so.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-03-06 18:24
Quote:
Examples are ubiquitous.
And recordings, understandably – and thankfully – are few. 
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-06 19:23
I'm talking about the trend with military band writers and arrangers, so can hardly post examples of that either in print or public performances if they're not in the public domain.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-06 22:19
Chris P wrote:
> I'm talking about the trend with military band writers and
> arrangers, so can hardly post examples of that either in print
> or public performances if they're not in the public domain.
>
1) You could have cited them by name if not put their copyright protected aspects here. Readers here could have then, for example, listened to public performances of them on, for example, Youtube.
2) You're initial unwillingness was about it not being a requirement here for you to do so, followed by there being far too many to list, not this most recent "protection of people's artistic work product" reason.
3) This is precisely why I cited Sousa, whose marches, written and published before 1923, are no longer under such protections and in the public domain.
https://tinyurl.com/v5zpsnzk
Post Edited (2025-03-06 22:33)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-06 23:31
Bloody hell! Talk about turning a molehill into a flippin' mountain!
If you want names, addresses, ages, inside leg measurements, dental records, etc. then call up the relevant band services who I'm sure won't provide you with any of that. I don't know what their names are as there are too many to remember as well as name of the top of my head, but just re-read my initial post and I'm sure you've experienced this phenomenon. If not, then good for you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-07 00:32
Make a claim, be unwilling to back it up when others (not me) ask because, in chronological order 1) you don't want to, 2) there's too many to cite, and 3) you don't want to infringe upon copyrights, all while finding shortcomings in the suggests others make (me) in your absence that support your claim.....
Please change your tag line Chris from "The opinions I express are my own." to "The opinions I express are my own, but don't expect me to back them up when asked to, nor sit idly by rather than find shortcomings in examples others provide for me in my absence."
Thanks.
Yeah, I'm the one with issues, not you. Sure.
Here's your correct reply, ready? "Next time I'll be willing to offer examples of my opinions upon request, or at least refrain from comment when others do in my absence for me?"
These are life's "rules of road."
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-03-07 00:54
I'm making an observation - not asking for a fvcking lecture on literature and criticism on it! If I wanted that I'd go to university.
LIGHTEN THE FVCK UP!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2025-03-07 01:18
J, M & J - get a life
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