 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-12 22:32
I know that there are scientists among the readers of this board. I hope someone will answer my question below.
I was fixing a Buffet for a friend. After finishing the repairs, I assembled it and started play-testing.
Played chromatic scale from the bottom E up/down a couple of times.Felt something was making noise.
After removing all three keys, I found broken pin on the left F#/C# lever. Also found a lot of oil on all three pins and corresponding holes. Apparently, the previous owner lubricated those pins...
Ordered carbon fiber pins .
I wonder if oil could accelerate plastic deterioration. I know that it can damage rubber but not sure about plastic.
Thank you
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-01-12 23:07
Most likely not, this is a known issue with several makes of clarinet and is caused by a fatigue failure of the plastic. Carbon fiber pins are a great idea.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2025-01-12 23:14
In short... yes it could... oil can absolutely damage plastic... but also no...
Some oils can damage some plastics.
But... it depends on the type of oil and type of plastic, temperature, amount, etc.
The pins on Buffet clarinets are supposedly made of nylon, which is relatively resistant to damage from oils. That's one of its advantages, and it's even pretty resistant to the worst oily offenders. But is it really nylon...?
I'm not a materials expert and don't know if there are types of oils that would specifically damage nylon, and if there are any, how likely it is that someone was using one of those on a clarinet...
I've contemplated this too, so I tested it and found no evidence of the pins breaking more when oiled, at least not with the oils and grease that I've tried.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-13 01:35
Attachment: reinforcednylonpins.jpg (208k)
I always oil the nylon pins to reduce mechanical noise. But that's only on Buffets I've serviced or overhauled and reinforced the nylon pins as routine wit a steel core instead of leaving them as is.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-13 05:13
Chris P wrote:
"I always oil the nylon pins to reduce mechanical noise..."
clarnibass wrote:
"...I've contemplated this too, so I tested it and found no evidence of the pins breaking more when oiled, at least not with the oils and grease that I've tried."
Thanks a lot to everyone who replied.
I too lubricated the pins using the La Tromba cork grease- it quiets down noise in those linkages quite a bit.
Never had a pin broke but my clarinets are very recent. My friend's clarinet is probably from early 2000s (s/n 500xxx).
Also, I think his hands/fingers are stronger than mine, at least his hand grip is
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-13 14:18
You may find that carbon fiber may not be the ideal product. There is a lot of factual information out there on its optimal use. It 'may' be too brittle in such small dimensions. The original use was for large solid objects such as race car wheels etc. Bicycle frames lately. Kevlar is a bit more forgiving of shock forces, hence it's use in bullet proof vests. Go do some research and let us know. I certainly am not an expert on the stuff.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-13 14:35
Carbon fibre is good in tension, such as carbon fibre bands.
And the cost of carbon fibre pins is ludicrous considering how small they are and they don't have the best surface for linkages unless they've been coated and polished. Carbon fibre is only as good as the resin used used to bond the fibres together.
I don't even charge for reinforcing nylon pins with a steel core as it only takes a matter of seconds to fit them as opposed to fart-arsing about making replacement pins from scratch out of either carbon fibre or stainless steel, or paying over the odds for prefabricated ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-01-13 15:30
I'm grateful for the many things I learn here, including technical terms like fart-arsing.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-01-13 19:47
I had to order them at almost $30/pair! Crazy expensive for what they are, however I was not going to order regular plastic/nylon pins from Amazon at $8 a piece (another rip-off).
Since it is a known problem, the carbon fiber is the way to go. I do not recall reading about carbon fiber pins breaking.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-13 20:39
I still have some Buffet nylon pins as Howarth bought them in bulk for use on the far simpler and more reliable fully automatic 8ve mechanism I designed for their oboes - the rocker has nylon pins on both ends that link it directly to holes going through the 1st and 2nd 8ve pad cup arms.
The risk of them breaking in this application is considerably low as the 8ve mechanism isn't subjected to any undue pressure as it all sits very low to the joint surface (so it's not crushed when the case lid is closed) and the master spring tension isn't excessive:
https://www.howarthlondon.com/content/uploads/2022/10/Howarth-S40C-Automatic-Oboe-web.jpg
https://www.howarthlondon.com/content/uploads/2023/05/7-LXV-Auto-Coco-Newmech.jpg
Even though Buffet basset horn and basses use slightly thicker nylon pins compared to their soprano clarinets, they without doubt need reinforcing given the weight of the keywork and the much heavier springing. The same type of nylon pins are seen on Uebel basses and other Chinese basses that are both Buffet copies and Yamaha copies.
"Faffing about/around" is another technical term that also means "fart-arsing".
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-01-13 21:29)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-14 02:21
Hi Chris, I would believe your option is the better one. From my experience product failure is not well advertised. There was a batch of carbon fiber bikes and parts that have fallen apart e.g. Scott bikes had one the front end broke off. A more recent one is Shimanos cranks dying etc. As we know carbon fiber has great application in specific settings. These pins are less than the ideal application. Again it comes back to the original design, quality control etc a well flogged path on this board.
Lateral movement on some of these left hand keys, likely results in frequent flexion of the pin. The left touch key moves up and potentially away from the equivalent right hand key arm. A good design should result in the linkage moving through the same arc/radius. Have a look at a clarinet with levers on the keys and it is usually clear.
It's a pity certain companies don't respond with better designs. I have friend with a pair of Devine's, hand picked and all that guffaw ( a new techo term)more out of tune than a 1962 9* selmer. Opus In, L3000, 1950 Kohlert, LL blah blah The pinky adjustment poorly located/design etc.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-14 13:28
It definitely helps to have some lateral play in the LH F#/C# lever key barrel instead of having it a perfect fit between the pillars (and this is true with all keys mounted perpendicular to the bore on wooden clarinets) as that allows the whole key to shift sideways when in use as the linkage piece naturally wants to shunt it sideways. It's less of a problem with the E/B linkage as the leverages and the amount of throw aren't as extreme.
With full Boehms and others where the LH Ab/Eb lever runs between the other LH levers, there's even more throw in the LH F#/C# linkage and therefore more stress on the pin, so both the linkage needs to be a sloppy fit and there has to be some lateral play in the LH F#/C# lever key barrel so nothing binds up or feels spongy in use.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-14 14:51
Yep the poor angle of the mounting post results in the lateral translation of the keys. It's a simple design fault for a 100 + years one would hope it would be fixed with the money we are now spending. Again a quality control issue, there should be ongoin improvement.
A good design would result in less lateral translation, less slop, potential for increased pin size and reduced pin failure as a result, simple really. Less lateral translation may also make the action more efficient, resulting in maybe a minute reduction in key travel. Hey the clarinet might even fit in the case better with the posts angled more.😀
Post Edited (2025-01-14 15:12)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-14 17:09
As I based my fully automatic 8ve mechanism on what you tend to see on modern saxes with the ends of the rocker being captive, I also allowed for lateral movement of the rocker on its rod screw just as you'd see on the rocker fulcrum on saxes when the rocker swivels to be sure it doesn't bind up in use.
If it was a free floating rocker with adjusting screws on the ends (like the cor anglais forked F vent I used the parts from when designing it), then that can be made a good fit as it's not going to experience any lateral force, just like the stepped design seen on the LH levers on some clarinets.
The downside with the stepped design is having to allow some lost motion in the LH F#/C# lever to be sure the F#/C# pad will close. Marigaux RS Symphonie clarinets had adjusting screws on the linkages so the amount of double action can be dialled in and infinitely adjusted, although after a while, adjusting screws do tend to compress or chew through the silencing materials or create noise if they're nylon tipped or harder silencing materials are used.
The LH F#/C# lever could always have a hinge part way along the lower end to allow for the amount of throw, but that too is a recipe for disaster if it's a sloppy fit and if you've encountered the hinged arm and tilting low Bb spatula configuration on Selmer SIII saxes, that proves my point. And as the pinned LH F#/C# lever is adding dead weight to the F#/C# key and is the usual cause of rebound (especially on Buffets with their crappy method of springing), any extra weight isn't welcome.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-01-14 18:42)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-15 01:23
Ultimately to improve the design you manage the hazard at the primary source/ root cause and minimize the lateral movement😀
Post Edited (2025-01-15 01:25)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2025-01-15 10:29
>> It definitely helps to have some lateral play in the LH F#/C# lever key barrel instead of having it a perfect fit between the pillars (and this is true with all keys mounted perpendicular to the bore on wooden clarinets) as that allows the whole key to shift sideways when in use as the linkage piece naturally wants to shunt it sideways. <<
One way to improve that is to have a slightly "squished" shape to the pins. A little tricky to explain, but instead of the usual ball or egg shape, better to have a sort of ellipse shape when looking directly from behind (lever hole side).
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-15 11:26
Absolutely increasing the pin size across one of its dimensions is what I have suggested. To reduce potential stiction on the key the logical thing to do is reduce lateral translation a nice little package. 100 + plus years and the same old crappy design is out there that creates lateral translation and potentially increased load on the pins. As mentioned above😀
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-15 12:32
The squished pin works best when the pin is set at an angle instead of being set parallel with the end of the LH lever. Like most things when it comes to woodwind mechanics, there are always compromises that have to be made as none of it is an exact science - it's a case of ditch the rule book and make it work as best as you can.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2025-01-15 19:05
You can swap the nylon pins for the stainless steel version with tiny ’O’ ring used on Buffet’s Devines, Legendes and BC XXIs, but they’re pricey. For example, the ‘O’ rings are £3.66 each at Dawkes for an item that’s so small you can hardly see it!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-01-15 20:14
If you've got money to burn that is, then again if you've paid over the odds for a poorly built and finished clarinet, you're already a glutton for punishment.
That's just daylight robbery with Buffet preying on the gullible as those small neoprene O rings or even teflon ones can probably be bought in bulk for a fraction of the cost of a single one supplied by Buffet.
At a guess they're 2.4mm outer diameter with either a 1.8mm or 2mm centre hole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-01-15 20:15)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2025-01-18 14:11
My local bearing supplies shop can supply those O rings in any quantity you need for a few cents apiece. They're also useful for very small screws in unusual sizes.
Tony F.
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