 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-08-08 12:40
Izzit the difference between 'Shive' cut and cross grain or Press-filled material?
Betcha Press filled is the same as the stuff used in gaskets?!
(I remember something like that shooting into the air when my Fairlane overheated)
From what I gather, the Portugeuse source of cork is economically endangered.
Many of the Vinters (world's largest single consumers of cork) are switching to the Poly-sumpinerother synthetic cork.
anji
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 15:53
Nope it's NOT the press-filled. I have several thicknesses of the press-filled in my stash. Tom doesn't use that (I know most of the materials that Tom/Brook Mayes uses or recommends --- all clarinet info on repairs eminates from North TX)
I have been informed that this is "RUBBER IMPREGNATED CORK".
Yes, I have seen the gasket material used (my daughter has some on her U/J bottom tenon of her E-11 backup.
Thanks.
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-08-08 16:03
It is strange. But, looks like it's really, really dirty--perhaps some black stain that had been on the inside of the barrel and top joint. If it had been overhauled as recently as the ad indicates, it makes me wonder what on earth they did to it. I'd send Tom an email and ask him if he remembers doing that specific clarinet.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 18:48
No, Brenda, this _IS_ a neoprene-type substance. Rubber-Impregnated Cork is the proper description of the material, I think. I'n guessing that many auto parts stores (& the like) sell it for do-it-yourself (home-made) Gaskets. I have located some, I think, in Oklahoma City in 1/16" size. Doesn't seem to be available in as many sizes as (real) Cork. Best, mw
ps I'd still like to know what Selmer is putting on the top tenon (U/J) of the Serlmer Signature. As I stated it is Gray (& perfectly clean) I wonder if it has been color-altered using a dye. It is a cork-like substance for sure.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-08 20:02
Looks to me like it is compressed cork, ie, cork made from bits and pieces as plywood is to wood. You can still buy the stuff through music suppliers although it is going out of fashion. There was a time back in the late '70s when there was a supposed "cork shortage" and this was about all one could get for a while. There a few technicians that claim it makes good tenon cork material. Very few.
Now, I don't know about the "grey" color or substance of which you are speaking Mark. I did examime the Signature rather closely at TBA, but it was already assembled on display. I did not take it apart to look at the tenons. I'll try to get by and take a peak at one this weekend.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 01:35
I called & spoke w/Tom Ridenour today. Tom says its Rubber Impregnated Cork Gasket material from the local auto parts store. I bought some today at NAPA & AutoZone. (12" x 36" x 1/16" was $3.80 @ AutoZone, 12" x 24" x 1/16" was $7.03 @ NAPA --- the NAPA seems to be a better quality)
Tom says its especially terrific on tenons of mouthpieces. He uses the 1/16'' (4/64ths) siize for most clarinets ... sands with some type of hand-held disk sander (not a dremel). Says that sand paper doesn't work well.
Having owned a Selmer Signature & having examined a number at ClarinetFest & Clarinet Symposiums --- all have had the gray-ish cork at the Tenon at the top of the U/J. We'd probably get an answer if Selmer, Paris had an email address. I searched seemingly forever ... no luck. Their website in Paris has French "subtitles" but the English hasn't started working yet. Been that way for a LONG time.
Best,
mw
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-08-09 02:01
I work for AutoZone and thats not the grade we sell. I think it may be a higher grade or special application grade like "aircraft", "transmission" or "hightemp". I do know some rubber/cork gasket materials won't work well with certain lubricants like automatic transmission fluids as it just desolves the type of rubber used in the construction of the gasket.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 04:20
I bought the Rubber Impregnated Cork at the AutoZone Store at the Danforth location in Edmond, OK. (Your store may not carry it --- but I bought it) It is the very same stuff that Tom Ridenour is using. I''ll trust Tom Ridenour (chemically) on this one, I think. He was the designer (and re-designer) of some great clarinets. The Rubber Impregnated Cork will take Contact Cement very well. Only difficulty is sanding. An outstanding _PLUS_ is that this material will NOT compress, as cork does. I ghave received several emails today from other Repair Techs who use the EXACT same material - in fact, trhat was how I got to AutoZone and NAPA. My dauighter's E-11 has this same stuff on for 4 years now. The tenon hasn't dissolved yet.
PS The product I purchased at AutoZone is called "Cork and Rubber Material", 87000, sku ref 3018, ENGINE SEAL (tm). It is distributed by Engine Seal, a dividion of Fel-Pro Incorporated. A 4" x 12" x 1/16" (or approx size) strip of Cork costs $10-12 a sheet. One can easily figure the difference. As I stated, I like the NAPA product better.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 04:22
JB --- I wouldn't use the Compressed Cork I think it's cruddy, too. Ferree's & J L Smith sell it amongst others. Not worth the effort. mw
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Author: willie
Date: 2001-08-09 04:49
I tried the Engine Seal stuff in a pinch and I didn't like it either. The stuff we have at our store doesn't look at all like whats on that Leblanc. I'll check the stock system anyway as some stores have stuff we can't get. Whats the NAPA number on their cork? Engine Seal is the bottom (econo) line of Felpro. Kinda like comparing a Pinto to a Crown Victoria.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 06:54
OK here is the NAPA Gasket info:
NAPA Gaskets, JV121, 12" x 24": x 1/16", CORK RUBBER, ViCTOR REINZ (quality products from the world leader in sealing technology)..
Tom has sanded the gasket material .... he said that it looks a bit different after sanding. (he said, for sure, don't sand it by hnad or it will really look rattty)
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 13:15
"don't sand it by HAND or it will really look ratty". mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-08-09 14:39
This is good to know when we run across one of these. I just had a Selmer Signature on approval over the past week and it had regular cork on the upper tenon joint.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-09 14:40
I'll get a sheet of it [if I can find it]. Knowing a little bit about synthetic rubbers, if it is Neoprene [polychloroprene I believe] [duPont etc] it should be somewhat more resistant to solvents than poly isoprene/butadiene etc polymers. Most of these [like tire rubbers] are "extended" for both wear and cost reasons with carbon black and other solids, and will "blend" to a color between the materials. A "rubbery" material could well be the adhesive to bind the cork [or synthetics like PVC] in the making of sheet material. Interesting, will look into it. Don
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-08-09 14:41
I just checked on this item again and it says the auction has ended, but the reserve was not met. Perhaps someone made a deal and the seller sold it.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 15:59
Brenda, I referenced the eBay auction only as to the CORK issue. For me, a 10+ year old Leblanc Concerto for $1000+ dollars holds no attraction. No doubt it does for others, just not me. This Clarinet was for sale here in the Sneezy Classifieds for a time. The Seller is a nice & knowledgable person. The very recent Ridenour Overhaul probably requires the pricing. If I was a Leblanc player, I would check this out. As stated before, I am not. Best, mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 16:06
Don, I would receommend the NAPA-brand rubber cork. Tried some late last night, and it worked GREAT!
One other benefit of the rubber cork product is that you don't have the "brittle-pieces break off" problem that you do with cork. I see this most on cork where I am cutting with my reazor blade creating the "beveled front edge" which meets the other end of the cork as it comes around the tenon. I will carefully cut some cork on the slant angle and ususally its no problem. I use the best quality blades & throw them away after just a use or two (as the price is so cheap, this is what I was taught to do).
[[ I have the (extra) AutoZone cork rubber. If somebody would like to try it, I'll be happy to mail you enough for a tenon. Unitl it's gone. Contact me by email offline ]].
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-08-09 19:06
Don wins the Jeporady question. I have checked with the manufacturer and it is indeed Neoprene impregnated cork. Neoprene indeed is a good product, some of the distillates in petroleum based cork grease will attack it over time - you should use a syntetic cork treatment designed for neoprene rubber gasket seals - since there is cork too you need something compatible with both - not a plug but some of the aerospace lubricants have properties which satisfy both materials and work superbly on woodwind instruments!
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-09 19:59
TKS, Omar, slightly-educated guestimate, didn't realize the Jeopardy tho! Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 21:32
Hey you guys stick with your Neoprene (DuPont). I have my COROPRENE (Armstrong, or so I am told) and it looks like the real thing. The Neoprene is a bit on the UGLY side, while Coroprene looks like the real McCoy. Neoprene has a slight smell, while Coroprene has much less. I am slo told the Coroprene has a high concentration of cork & will sand much better than Neoprene. Best, mw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-09 21:50
MW - Is it Coro or Chloro? It may just be a vairant of the original. Beyond me!! D
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 23:50
Spelled correctly. My manufacturers are correct, too. Armstrong settled some litigation with Dupont some time back. The subject of the litigation as relayed to me was infringement concerning the chemical makeup of "prene". Armstrong pays a royalty to Dupont.
[[ Coroprene will get you a fair number of hits "out opf the box" in (all the) Search Engines ]]..
Don said:
"It may just be a vairant of the original"
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Or an IMPROVEMENT. Dupont does not have a product like this. The major use of Coroprene is in custom manufacture of Gaskets for (particulat) electrical parts, mainly transformers. I ended up with a free sample & a new client. Not bad pay for my research foray.
Best,
mw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-08-10 00:37
Dear All,
I have done some extensive research on replacements for the cork everywhere on the clarinet and it is a difficult area. Actually, they combine cork with the rubber in some gasket materials because of the superb compressability without lateral displacement of natural cork. There are no gasket materials, even aerospace seals on hatches and between components that have the compressability index - lateral displacement index of cork (NASA lists some 83 different types of seal materials and gives the specifications for more properties than I can understand). I agree that some of the new high technology materials will probably outlast natural cork but ultimately, in order to use these materials, the design of the tenon socket must be changed - not a bad idea, but this is a manufacturing issue that will not soon be changed I would guess. Properly treated - I won't go into those issues here - natural cork will last and remain compressable for many years. What is the cost saving per unit time by using alternate materials? I guess the savings are geared to the repair person and not the customer?
The Doctor
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-10 01:02
Omar Henderson said:
"What is the cost saving per unit time by using alternate materials? I guess the savings are geared to the repair person and not the customer?"
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What does that mean? The savings % of cost cork v. a product like Coroprene is very dramatic --- a tremenduous savings. Lower cost of materials should result in cost savings being passed on to the end user. Then we have many end users wgho do their own basic maintenance. Anybody ... everybody should be able to replace cork on a clarinet. I can think of some OTHER products which are clarinet maintenance related that are NOT cost effective, for sure.
Then Omar said:
" .... the design of the tenon socket must be changed - not a bad idea, but this is a manufacturing issue that will not soon be changed I would guess".
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No redesign is required at all to use a product like Coroprene.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-10 03:05
Perhaps I'm like Tom Hanks in the movie "Big". I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here, especially yours Mark. But, to quote from one particular scene in that movie....."I don't get it." Cork is very servicable. It lasts a very long time if proper care is taken with it. As I stated on a thread several months ago I still have the same neck cork on my Mark VI alto sax that I put on it in 1976! It hasn't compressed and still going strong! Before I overhauled my Buffet for sale year before last, I'm sure my tenon corks were several years old and still very tight in the seal. I know people try new products as to make progress, headway, improvement, whatever, but I'm not going out and buying a bunch of this product just yet.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-10 03:32
John, I didn't say you should. In fact, you probably shouldn't because most of your customers will want (traditional) cork on their clarinets. I was trying to encourage everyone here who had an interest to INVESTIGATE. (but I give .... )
However, bear in mind that others that may not be so hasty to pass over the ideas presented here. Several Symphony players in OKC use Neoprene & really like it. I have heard from professionals the world over in the last day or so (many read Sneezy but don't post).
This is a case of materials that work well --- traditional or "alternative" as several have called it.
I think Tom Ridenour & people like him lead the pack. What he is doing now, others will do 10 years from now (& think these new ideas are wonderful _THEN_, as opposed to now).
Many repair people use the synthetic crap sold by Valentino. Many other repair people don't change out corks during an overhaul "if they look serviceable". Most Clarinettists don't know the difference, which is a shame too.
Hey, I had an NT Network when everyone else thought a "sneakernet worked just fine". DSFDF.
mw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-08-10 09:50
Innovation, experimentation, and the use of superior new materials "is" the basis for progress. I am going way out on an unfamiliar limb in the repair world which I should not do. My point was that cork is the superior product compared with purely synthetic rubber "I am not sure that these products should be referred to as rubber, but probably elasteromeric substances". Do not get me wrong, I make my buisiness out of providing some superior synthetic materialsthat interact beautifully with natural products.
Cork, per unit mass/volume, is more compressible than the rubber products. Per given thickness cork has less lateral displacement and therefore less shear pressure on the attachment surface (which over time translates into the possibility of the material becoming detached). My point about cost was that over time the cost of using quality cork is diluted to a miniscule amount compared to the difference in price of the material used. The crisis in the cork producing areas of the world has dropped the price (if you know where to look and deal directly) to a reduction in the cost of A+++ cork by 70%.
My point about redesigning the tenon socket was that the present design is based on tolerences which take the compressability of cork into account. Actually one could envision redesigned tolerences and a teflon like (there are many new tri, quad, and hexa chloro-fluro reduced friction compounds) insert in the tenon socket which would obviate the need for lubricant use (then I'm out of business)! These might even be electrolytically deposited on the inner socket surface. So many possibilities!
I am all for progress - we have some great innovations and products shared by the knowledgable BB contributors. My other point was that the manufacturers are slow to change classic and proven designs. The difference in cost to them for bulk cork and elasteromeric materials is pennies. In the repair and refurbishing trade it could be a few dollars - but now ob cit the cost reductions in cork - it is maybe a dollar. Will the new elasteromeric materials perform perfectly for the next twenty years - maybe? We also must remember that these materials will be subjected to the abuse of petroleum based lubricants (unfortunately by many players and manufacturer's of "care ????" products). We can probably extend the life of our instruments to a greater degree by using new and innovative "care" products.
mw - keep it up - you have shared many wonderful new ideas and funny EBay items that keep this dialog interesting!
The Doctor
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-10 15:57
Omar Henderson said:
"... cork is the superior product compared with purely synthetic rubber ...:
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Coroprene is a cork product & has a goodly amount of real cork _IN_ it. It's a BLENDED product; therefore, _rubber_ is not an accurate decription.
"... I make my buisiness out of providing some superior synthetic materials that interact beautifully with natural products."
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Omar, your comments might be viewed as self-serving right?
"Cork, per unit mass/volume, is more compressible than the rubber products."
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Yes, Cork is more compressible. Those people who leave their Clarinets set up for long periods of time would probably LOVE to try Coroprene ... heck any "PRENE" for that matter. Calling Coroprene a RUBBER product is (again) INcorrect.
"My point about cost was that over time the cost of using quality cork is diluted to a miniscule amount compared to the difference in price of the material used."
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No diluting --- price reduction is REAL & SIGNIFICANT.
"My other point was that the manufacturers are slow to change classic and proven designs. The difference in cost to them for bulk cork and elasteromeric materials is pennies."
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This was never a discussion about MANUFACTURERS.
"We can probably extend the life of our instruments to a greater degree by using new and innovative "care" products."
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Hmm ... is this "supply side economics" or "supply side marketing" ?
Best,
mw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-08-10 19:18
I am glad that someone corrected my semantic errors - now only if they would correct my spelling life would be great. I only wish that my manuscript reviewers would choose such easy targets to refute.
Yes, the blended elastomeric-cork compounding is neither really cork nor rubber. It is designed as a gasket material with certain compression characteristics and cohesive properties and chemical and environmental protection added by the elastomeric. As such this material was never designed for repeated compression and relaxation (as in assembling and disassembling). According to NASA, who has specifications and performance characteristics for seal materials (including several mundane and exotic elastomeric blends with cork), the materials have about 30% less duty cycle for compression and relaxation than natural cork. The entire complex, depending on the perportions of cork and elastomer, averages 36% less compressability than natural cork. Since these two materials have different lateral stress components, the bond between them is strained with each compression and relaxation. In real, everyday terms, I do not know how this translates into tenons on clarinets - just the test results.
Yes, some of my comments were self-serving and I apologize for crass commercial greed, and I will stop this immediately as soon as my company starts to make a profit!
Yes, there might be (depending on the price and mark up) a difference of about one U.S. Dollar between using gasket materials versus high quality musical grade cork to replace the all the tenon cork. Perhaps this is a real and significant saving to the customer.
Best to all.
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-10 20:00
MW , Omar -what an interesting discussion this has turned out to be!!! Not having a NAPA here in River City [BVL], I went to AutoZone, saw their ground-up cork-Neoprene, too thick for me, big roll $6-8, a smaller roll of some plastic $5, bought a 4x5 " sheet of brown plastic $1, will open it and evaluate, seems quite stiff, called "Engine Seal" #87005 about right [3/64"?] thickness. Very true, it is hard to get better than good ole cork, which we know what to do with. Will pursue! Don
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-10 20:05
Omar henderson said:
"I am glad that someone corrected my semantic errors - now only if they would correct my spelling life would be great. I only wish that my manuscript reviewers would choose such easy targets to refute."
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No problem. Just tell me where to send the bill!
"Yes, the blended elastomeric-cork ................... I do not know how this translates into tenons on clarinets - just the test results."
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Then it's all hocus-pocus & mumbo-jumbo, right? Strictly theoretical, unproven.
"Yes, some of my comments were self-serving and I apologize for crass commercial greed, and I will stop this immediately as soon as my company starts to make a profit!"
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I really believe you are SERIOUS!
"Yes, there might be (depending on the price and mark up) a difference of about one U.S. Dollar between using gasket materials versus high quality musical grade cork to replace the all the tenon cork. Perhaps this is a real and significant saving to the customer."
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Care to share your math? Let's include the UPS shipping cost of $6.95 with each order of cork. Premium Cork at J L Smith is $18.90 + UPS shipping for their PREMIUM Grade Cork. That works out to about $25.00 delivered for a 4" x 12" x 1/16" sheet of cork. Coroprene is $15.00 (locally) for a 30" x 30" x 1/16" sheet. The Cost of the Coroprene is approximately 5% of the premium Cork.
Now at 3 1/4" x 9/16" (w/bevelled sides) x 1/16" --- each strip of cork which is cut works out to about 95 cents to a $1.00 --- EACH. Let's say one gets 25 - 26 individual cuttings or so out of a sheet. (Figure the area & divide) Moving to the Coroprene 30" x 30" --- we get 490 strips of cork at a cost of $ 03 to $.04 (that's cents) each. The SAVINGS is approx. $.90 --- 90 cents PER STRIP x 4 ---that's between $3.50 & $4.00 per "Cork Change". [[Clarinets need 4 Strips with the mouthpiece]]. If I am LOW on the amount of waste & we get LESS strips per sheet --- the price "shavings" is even MORE dramatic.
Most people who bought a 30' x 30" sheet of Coroprene would have enough Cork product for LIFE!
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-10 20:17
Don, email me your street address & I will be happy to send you a swatch of the Coroprene. I bought the Engine Seal ---- see above --- I said it smelled (oooh!) & was not the quality I was hoping for. Don't think it will sand as well as the Coroprene. The Coroprene looks (almost) exactly like natural Cork.
I welcome the testing & comparison of these products. However, it's not fair to "cut" these new materals or ideas for no reason other than the obvious.
If I was having an overhaul done on an R-13 (for resale) I _would_ choose natural cork. But, only because the end buyer would want it. AND, that doesn't mean that natural cork is better.
mw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-08-10 20:28
Yes, unproven on clarinet tenons - well and seriously tested for operational properties for the space program with specifics for compression cycles and failure rates. I think that it is great that someone else will take the time to do scientific and practical testing on new products and then defend the results. Thanks!
Yes, your math is impeckable - I would not argue numbers (I always loose with my accounting firm anyway) with you from your source. I however have been in contact with a Portuguese cork company that is struggling with the elastomeric wine stopper crisis who is able to supply the best quality cork that I have ever seen - my math works out to about $0.25 each with shipping by international letter surface (about 2 weeks) at $2.85 for a bunch of cork.
No, I will not share this source but will sell you the best quality cork that you may ever see at a significant cost reduction from the source that you - (a priori fait de comple' ) - used in your calculations. There goes my commercial greed again - but it could mean a Po Boy rather than Micky D's in New Orleans.
Best wishes.
The Doctor
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