 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Azzacca
Date: 2001-08-07 18:44
I'm wondering about the apparent hole in one of the tenons!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-08-07 19:19
Info seems okay to me, Mark.
It's a full Boehm, Azzacca. The hole in the middle tenon is to accomodate the articulated (alternate) G#.
Looks like a nice instrument for the starting price. I notice, there is no reserve.
- ron b -
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-08-07 19:24
It looks pretty nice to me, but according to sneezy, it cannot date from the 50s with this serial number, it shoud 38 not 58. I think this is what we should decrypt from mw's subject ;->
Was Buffet making FB R13's in the 30's?
Anyway great horn if it is that old, is it an A?
-S
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-07 19:28
MW - Is this a dating question? Looks like a nice Buff F B, BUT, if it is earlier than '58, be advised that I found the artic, C#/G# mech on an early one to be a real mess. Its hard to make out that detail here but it looks quite similar to "our" problem mechanism. Suggest a careful check! Don
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2001-08-07 19:52
Don, you give great info -- caveat empetor. I was salivating at this FB, but your warning takes a bit of the glow off this "creampuff."
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-08-07 20:55
Serial # 24411 dates from 1938 -- definitely pre-R-13. You can also tell by looking at the guide for the top two trill keys. On pre-R-13s, it's a U-shaped piece of flat metal with a pyramid shape. On the R-13, it's a round-topped column with a slot cut down through it.
The C#/G# mechanism has good and bad things about it. As Don says, It's often sluggish, but a good repair shop can make to work reasonably well. You have to put up with a slightly stronger spring than on the simpler key. Because the hole is drilled through the tenon, it can be larger than the standard key and in the acoustically correct position. You lose the "long" high F (thumb, register, all 6 fingers plus the C#/G#) and a good fingering for the Bb above that (adding the Ab throat key and the right little finger on the F/C key), but once again, the better placed hole makes the high F better, so you don't need the long fingering (which I try to avoid, since I don't like the tone color).
The mechanism is extremely finicky. The pad covering the hole above the left middle finger is closed in 3 separate ways: by the ring for the left middle finger, by the ring for the left ring finger and by the right-hand rings. The tiny pad attached to the ring for the left middle finger is closed by that ring and also by the right-hand rings. That makes 5 adjustments, all of which have to be perfect, and all of which depend on one another. I have one of these instruments and needed to have the left middle finger ring adjusted to be a little higher. It took hours for what, on a standard instrument, is a simple and quick adjustment.
Kalmen Opperman has told me that relatively few of the extra-mechanism instruments from the 20,000 series are really good, and he particularly tries to avoid the ones with the left-hand Ab/Eb lever (which forces the other 2 keys apart) and the low Eb. Also, you must look very carefully at any instrument that old, since the barrels and the top of the upper joints have often been bored out to make them respond quicker, which spoils the tone.
I also worry about the "normal usage chips" mentioned in the description, and the fact that the seller doesn't know this isn't an R-13. It could be a great one, but I wouldn't touch it without an ironclad return option.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-08-07 21:48
TKS, C H, just wanted to pass along"experience". Also TKS, Ken, I am always learning about Buffs from you [and others] , my familiarity is with Selmers and LeBlancs . Incidentally my old Penzel-Mueller and 2 Selmer F B's [one real old] have good C#/G# mechanisms!! As C H said cav. empt. Don
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2001-08-07 22:08
To my understanding, the LP marking would indicate an older horn as well, wouldn't it?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-08 00:28
The LP marking is consistent with an instrument made in the 1930s or earlier. I've not seen any horns newer than the 1930s that had such a mark. Therefore, one would deduce that either the bell is not original or the instrument is indeed older as the apparent serial number indicates.
The case certainly does not look original nor does it look like any Buffet cases that I have seen.
If the instrument is indeed from the 1930s, it cannot be an R-13 though no doubt it is a pro grade instrument.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 02:59
Sylvain & Ken Shaw who questioned the DATING are exactly correct! (BRAVO!) It is possible that the serial number is a typo --- but more than likely not. mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 11:45
No one said anything, but in a former career as an Auditor & in some serious forensic work I have done, certain numbers (& their styles) have a "habit" of fading or not being properly stamped/impressioned ---- thus leading to a mis-reading. For years I have ssen people read Form W-2 carbonless (or egads ... carboned) that could have read numerically as any number of possibilities.
[[ thus, the title of my post ]]
I have seen a few Clarinets with these numeric problems, too. [[ we have another Poster elsewhere today who is saying "is it a 1 or a 7".
Contributing to the misreadings are ALIGNMENT problems of serial numbers, from time to time, by the manufacturers.
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 16:38
Why? Misinformation or incorrect information should NOT (by itself) breed that type of feeling. Honest mistakes happen. Ignorance IS bliss, but it is not necessarily a condition that causes a buyer to walk away. With a judgement, like that you may miss out on some opportunities (clarinet & otherwise). Stick around, listen, watch, ask questions when necessary & _THEN_ evaluate the situation.
I saw an eBay Seller's statement ... "This description is as good as it gets".
He/she wasn't saying that it was correct, just that nothing better was going to be uttered by them.
Best,
mw
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-08 17:54
It just doesn't seem right, that's all. I feel this way towards most horns on Ebay.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-08 20:06
Careful. The work is full of people who dislike others (people & things) ... most of them don't have a good reason. It's called PREJUDICE. None of us are cured of this dreaded "disease". mw
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-08 21:47
Amen to the articulated C#/G#, Don. I overhauled one of these earlier this summer of about the same vintage. The owner wanted cork pads on upper and the C#, B and Bb on the lower joint. Cork pad on this mechanism just wouldn't work. I finally convinced him that a bladder pad would be much better.
John
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Author: Tammi Keffer
Date: 2001-09-09 05:03
Don- I saw that you have a Penzel clarinet. I have a clarinet with the following markings that I am anxious to know more about: G. Penzel New York Professional U-328B It is wood. The barrel looks like it might be rosewood. The rest of the clarinet appears darker. Keys are silver. It is in very good condition. Wondering what year it was made and how much it might be worth.
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