 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: big fat lyre112
Date: 2003-06-24 20:07
what's the difference between an alto clarinet and a basset horn? They look pretty much the same. Thanks for the help.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-06-24 20:58
I play in a clarinet choir (a pretty good one) which includes a player on a very expensive Wurlitzer Oehler-system basset horn (or is it basset clarinet?) with range to low C, lots of extra keys --- beautiful to look at --- but to me it still sounds like (pardon the phrase) doo-doo.
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-06-24 21:09
David Spiegelthal wrote: "but to me it still sounds like (pardon the phrase) doo-doo."
--Isn't that what a New Jersey girl sings in the shower every morning?? No, no sorry that's, (ascending/descending triad) Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me-Me. v/r Ken ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-24 22:07
I play basset horn and love it. It plays like a clarinet in the high register yet has this thrilling bass. A lot depends on getting the right mouthpiece. I've heard some bad ones too, but at its best the BH has a lovely silvery and ethereal sound which I think is quite distinctive to that of the alto clarinet.
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2003-06-25 06:44
Well,
technical differences (mostly):
1. bore size more narrow
2. thinner wall
3. reaching to low C
differences in playing a basset horn (compared with alto clarinet)
1. more expressive sound, but also more difficult to play, more sensitive to reeds, embouchure, ...
2. clarion register less dominating compared with chalumeau register
Arnold (the basset hornist)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-06-25 12:19
Aren't Bassett Clarinets and Bassett Horns different things?
One has an upturned bell and is in F, the other is straight and is in A...?
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2003-06-25 14:03
Most basically, the alto clarinet is in Eb and the basset horn is in F. The alto clarinet has a usual range to written low Eb and the basset horn may have an extended range to written low C. ( I once had a Haynes silver basset horn which went to only low E.)
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-06-25 14:19
basset horns and basset clarinets are differents instruments.
Basset horn is pitched in F, basset clarinet in A and is used mainly to play the Mozart's concert and quintet. Some basset horn parts are included in Mozart's "Gran Partita", Requiem and "La Clemenza di Tito".
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-25 16:25
Most of the alto cl's I've seen and played are of larger bore, prob. to produce greater volume. I believe the LeBlanc alto [had one] is the largest and the Selmer-Paris [have one] is the smallest, but still larger than their Basset Horn. I can find bore diameters, but some catalogs may give them, for those who wish to compare/research. I try to think of my Sel as a Basset, and strive for it's distinctive tonalities. As to range/compass, because of the alto's one-note lower pitch, it is capable of all but the Basset's lowest C, and the transposition is the same as the trans of C parts for Bb playing, namely one full tone higher, add 2 #s or subt. 2 b's from the key signature. If a low C is encountered, extending the alto's bell by a tube is a possibility!! Have Fun. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-25 17:40
Alphie, I remeber that piece very well, because I read it just before getting my basset horn from Buffet Crampon and stuck it in my book of musical clippings.
Having now played the thing for a couple of years, I'm not sure I agree with you that it is an alto clarinet in F.
I do admit that when I first took delivery, I wasn't at all happy with the mouthpiece that came with it, a Vandoren B40. It was very easy to blow, and had a very big and full sound, which was probably right for an alto clarinet, but was not my idea of how a basset horn should sound.
With a different mouthpiece (from Ed Pillinger in London) the instrument sounds altogether more gentle. I also found that one needs to play with a very relaxed embouchure and thus fairly soft reeds.
Given these conditions, I think that even the modern, relatively large bore French basset horn has a sound that is quite distinct from an alto clarinet. Of course, I wonder if you get an alto clarinet to sound like a basset horn with the appropriate mouthpiece and embouchure adjustments.
The essential thing for me is that is such a wonderful instrument to play Mozart. Much of his basset horn music has been transcribed for clarinet. Transposing it back for an instrument in F gives it a totally different dimension, in my opinion.
I'd be very interested to hear what mouthpiece and ligature other basset horn players use, because it seems to me that these elements are more critical on this instrument than on the clarinet.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-25 17:46
To continue javier's list of basset horn use by Mozart, we must also include some of the music composed for the freemason lodge which included basset horn parts:
K.346, K.410, K.411, K.436-439, and K.477 as well as a number of fragmentary and lost works.
There were also works for basset horn by contemporaries of Mozart. These would include a Divertimento by Michael Haydn, a Quintet for Basset horn and strings by Backofen, a quartet for basset horn a string trio by Fusz and numerous works by Druzecky (which even include a Concerto for 3 Basset horns and orchestra)...GBK
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-25 17:57
And the (Mozart) Nocturnes. I have a couple of books listing basset horn pieces, and I'll post the titles as soon as I can lay hands on them.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-25 18:12
beejay....I think the Nocturnes you may be referring to are K.436 - K.439, which I listed.
However there also is K.549 (one which I forgot to list) which is a Nocturne for 2 sopranos, bass & 3 basset horns...GBK
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-25 22:22
You are right GBK. Thank you for setting me right on that one. There is a most delightful recording of the Nocturnes and other basset horn music called "Une soirée chez les Jaquins."
The two books I promised to find are "The Basset-Horn & Its Music" by John P.Newhill, publihsed by the author, and "Bassethornmusik" by Thomas Grass. I don't have the publication details on this, although I'm sure Arnold the Bassethornist would. Between them, the two booklets show that the basset horn has an extremely rich repetoire although most of the composers are relatively obscure.
Newhill discusses in some detail the difference between narrow bore and wider bore instruments -- the latter having been introduced in order to improve intonation.
"The point that a basset horn with the same bore as an alto clarinet in Eflat must sound like one is simply not true" Newhill says.
He adds that the tonal differences between wide-bore and narrow-bore basset horns "are almost undectecable to the average listener, especially when one also considers that every player produces his own individual sound."
This comes back to my point about having the right mouthpiece, ligature and embouchure. It seems to me that different set-ups produce a far more noticeable variety of effects on the basset horn than on the clarinet.
As I said earlier, I would be interested in hearing what other players have to say about this, and particularly what thoughts they may have about specialized mouthpieces for this instrument.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-06-26 16:21
beejay.
I developed my taste for the basset horn sound from playing a lot of the early style instruments. The sound of these instruments is nowhere close to the sound of the modern instruments. When playing the early clarinet it's quite clear that there is a relationship soundwise to the modern instrument but the modern BH is just another instrument.
The construction of the old original concept of the BH that Mozart knew is a norrow bore tube with tone holes placed slightly higher up on the tube from being acusticly perfect with therefore slightly smaller tone holes. This construction gives a velvetly dark smoothe timbre. You can play only mf maximum or nothing comes out or it will squeak. You would need fairly soft reeds to get the cross fingerings out and a tip opening not too closed. You have to be very careful how much pressure you use and it can be quite difficult to master it in the beginning but once you get to know it it's really something different.
You have to agree that the (french) modern BH has very little of the above written both in constuction and description of sound? It's basically a quite perfect large clarinet with the tone holes at the right place and you can basically blow as hard as you want. This is why the sound is different.
The German style BHs I've seen together with Selmer have kept more of the old concept, at least the narrow bore and come somewhat closer to the old sound but still the difference is bigger than the comparison old vs. modern clarinet. It's something about the "quacky" quality of the sound I'm having problems with. I agree that you can come closer if you carefully pick your MP/reed setup with a specific sound in mind and don't go only the easiest way and play what works the best and loudest. The most important thing is to get away from the Donald quacky-Duck thing.
Compare with the bassoon. An acustically perfectly constructed bassoon would probably sound like a double reed bass clarinet. On a perfect bassoon there is not a single tone hole at it's right place and the bore is even more out to lunch. Thats why it is a bassoon with it's unique sound.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-06-26 17:30)
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-06-26 17:15
I have not done a direct comparison between a buffet alto and a buffet basset horn, or the Buffet BH and, say a Leblanc BH, but one thing seems clear from comparing my Buffet BH with both my clarinet and my bass clarinet, and that is that the ratio of tone hole opening to wood in the bore is very different.
The tone holes on the BH are smaller relative to the bore. On many notes (including higher up the instrument), the venting is through two small holes where the bass and the clarinet use only one. If the holes were drilled for "acoustical perfection" then they would be bigger and usually match the number of holes on a clarinet or a bass clarinet. This must have a substantial impact on tone.
I think the biggest reason why a Buffet BH would sound different to a narrower bore basset would be that it is tuned to work with an alto mouthpiece. But, as Beejay says, with a carefully chosen mouthpiece you can make an alto mouthpiece sound similar to a smaller b flat mouthpiece. The standard B 40 that comes with the buffet package is a nice mouthpiece for sure, but is designed to play an alto clarinet. When I shifted to a close facing (1.3 mm) alto mouthpiece it sounded much more like a basset and people asked whether I was playing on a particulalrly narrow bore authentic set up!
I think you could probably elicit an alto sound from a Buffet BH, but then that would be your choice. It is better suited to sounding like a basset horn, which is precisely what it is.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-26 17:42
I just checked the mouthpiece I got from Ed Pillinger, and it does indeed have a facing of 1.3 mm.
As for the sound of the old basset horns mentioned by Alphie, that is what I have in my head when I play, and given the right combination of reed, mouthpiece and embouchure I think I can come pretty close. In other words, I do not have the sensation that I am playing an alto clarinet in F. I am playing a basset horn.
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2003-06-26 19:34
Beejay wrote: "There is a most delightful recording of the Nocturnes and other basset horn music called "Une soirée chez les Jaquins."
If we're talking the same thing, this is a wonderful double CD album (produced by Zig-Zag Territoires) by Gilles Thomé who manufactured his own copy of a period basset horn (Klotz I guess). Aside the different nocturnes, one will find a "reconstruction" of the original K622 (based on the remains of the original score) for basset horn and orchestra. A must have for anyone interested in the famous K622 mystery.
Stéphane.
After you've heard a work by Mozart, the silence that follows, this is still by Mozart.
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2003-06-26 21:39
Thanks for this Alphie, I had heard about that documentary, I need to get a copy of it.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-27 16:07
Ain't this bulletin board just grand for exotica? Who'da thought more than 20 posts on the basset horn? Beats discussions about ligatures in my book.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-27 17:38
beejay proclaimed:
>Ain't this bulletin board just grand for exotica? Who'da thought more than 20 posts on the >basset horn?
Who would have thought more than 100 posts on tongue piercing during 2 days in September 2002.
For Mark, it was probably like a bad dream he'd rather forget ...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-06-27 17:40
Gosh, beejay, I'm glad you mentioned 'ligatures', I was HOPING we'd finally get back to that, the most fascinating of topics, for sure!!!! I use a ligature EVERY DAY, how about the rest of you out there??? And if I had a basset horn I'd use a ligature on it, too!!!
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Author: Vic
Date: 2003-06-27 18:19
Re: GBK's comment about the tongue-piercing thread - that was a good one, and I'd like to respectfully submit that we revisit that entire concept. How about it, Mark? Can we? Please?
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2003-06-27 20:06
I put a piercing on the reed of my basset horn, you can not imagine the nice mellow sound I am just getting!! (and it suits my metal ligature so well...)
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2003-06-29 00:57
The question is where are you going to play?
Concert Band: alto clarinet
Clarinet Choir: alto clarinet (mostly)
Clarinet Quartet: alto clarinet (mostly)
If you are playing Mozart or the Mendelssohn pieces, then you need a basset horn.
Gary
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-29 02:13
TKS, Gary V C , for contributing wisdom and experience to both the alto [ big eefers] and the alto cl vs basset horn threads, I do agree! Are you going to have Al Rice's forthcoming book of historical clarinetistry available before long? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2003-06-29 02:45
We hope to have the paperback version of his book on the Baroque Clarinet available at ClarinetFest (it hasn't arrived yet).
His new book on the Classical Clarinet is now scheduled for August at a price of $74.00. I wouldn't be surprised if both of those change before it finally appears.
Gary
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2024-02-17 21:47
I wrote some trios for two clarinets and either: Alto Clar, Bass Clar or Eb Sax. I don't like Bass clarinet that much for this and Alto Clar never had a good sound to me. So I'm left with alto sax for the low notes and it effectively plays only as low as a Bb Clar with an extra 1/2 step. The music goes down a few lower to a concert Eb which I think an F Basset horn can range to. A tenor sax would cover up the two clarinets. An alto sax might be too much too when the notes got up into the Middle of the staff. I might buy a Basset horn in F and play the third line myself. I don't care so much about available music cause the way I'm going I could write my own. Also is it feasible to sit in with the F horns in the community orchestras? Horn players seem to screw up most the time and could use a clarinetist to plough thru the parts without struggle.
Post Edited (2024-02-17 21:49)
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