 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-08-06 12:47
hello everyone,
last week i asked about tongue position becuz i had a feeling that what my teacher told me last week was wrong.
i consider my teacher to be very good in comparison to my previous teachers. my teachers teacher was opperman. i have made a lot of progress with him. he is good at pointing out the fine details that would otherwise go unnoticed. i have been with him for nearly a year and we have a good student/teacher relationship.
last week he asked me to do some intervals...like low E and add the octave etc.. he noticed my chin/lips/jaw moves slightly each time i put the octave on. so he told me to bite. i always hear that its not good to bite and in fact i sounded worse when i did. i did it anyway....i didnt want to challenge him. after all he does know a lot more than me. and it does make sense to bite if my jaw is moving but are there different kind of bites? he asked me what i do when he tells me to bite and i told him i press my lips harder. is this ok? when people say not to bite do they mean dont bite with your teeth? geez, can you see im getting all confused.....
then he asked me where my tongue was....asking if it was down and forward. i wasnt sure but after he said that i tried to do it that way. he said to say ahhhhh with an open throat and just keep it that way. the book i have (tom ridenour educators guide to the clarinet) says this is completely wrong.
i dont know what to do......i do not want to find a new teacher...but do i question him?? hes not the type who would take well to being questioned or should i just agree with him and do what he says, or agree but dont do what he says???
HELP!
jan
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-06 13:38
Jan, "bite" has become an unfortunate word to use in this forum, partly because it has a different meaning for different people. To some writers it has only negative connotations.
Inevitably some purists enter the discussion advocating a double lip embouchure with no teeth involvement at all. Indeed they may have their entire lip in FRONT of the teeth, as is more common for the lower saxophones. Good for them. They may well have practiced several hours per day for a long time to get and maintain their lip in a state that can cope with this. These people, and others who advocate no bite at all may sometimes just be boasting at the lip form they have managed to achieve. Rather like the aerobics competitor with his extremely hard muscle tissue.
Others will associate the word with severe pressure exerted by the teeth, such that the lip would even get cut and bleed. This of course is ridiculous.
Somewhere in between there is a situation where SOME of the support in giving an appropriate shape and tension to the bottom lip utilizes a little (or a little bit more) pressure from the teeth under the lip.
A child beginner is most UNLIKELY to have sufficient lip tissue firmness to play without some support from teeth, otherwise they will produce that totally uncontrolled fog-horn sound. Ah! There's a better term - 'support from teeth', To some writers this does not constitute "bite" and to others it does.
Add to all this the fact that many, many people are not really conscious what parts of their body do once those activities have become automatic. A player who has hardened his lip tissue by regular playing may no longer even be conscious that he exerts some teeth support, because their now-strong lip no longer feels damaged or painful. This applies PARTICULARLY to very experienced players for whom processes involved in playing have become as automatic as walking or writing.
The reality is that most casual players probably will not develop that super firm tissue that provides adequate support on its own. That is because other life commitments claim from the time commitment required to develop this tissue. Think of firm lip tissue like the callouses on the hands of the brick layer. The brick layer should not be surprised that the acountant gets a blister after handling bricks for a single minute. The accountant uses leather gloves for some assistance. We use some teeth support.
So most of us, whether we are conscious of it or not, use SOME degree of helpful support from the teeth, especially for the top notes (which MUST have added support) and extended soft passages, and especially if we practice eratically. When I perform publicly (in shows) after weeks or months of no playing I have two options.... Pull out of the performance altogether, or resort to a little more teeth support assistance as required.
So my advice is to do what you need to do, and if your teacher is suggesting that you use some teeth assistance (for the support needed to contain the higher air pressure/speed needed for top register perhaps) until your lip turns to leather and rock-hard muscle then what is wrong with that? Try it. Discuss it with him. He is obviously heading somewhere... better tone, volume control, range, stamina.....
Now I hand over to the fanatics, the unconscious, the fish-lip tissue brigade, The imaginers of chunks being bitten off the lip, etc
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-06 13:40
I stress that the above is merely my opinion formed from a very analytical and conscious approach to all I do.
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Author: Bob Curtis
Date: 2001-08-06 14:14
Jan and Gordon:
This dissertation, in my opinion, is a very good one and worthy of serious consideration! I have taught the clarinet for over 50 years, both as a private teacher and as a retired band director. Two of the most misunderstood aspects of teaching the clarinet are the embouchure and breath support, mainly because of misunderstand the terrms we use to try to get across to our students what we are talking about. Gordon has done a very good job in explaining the aspects of "bite" and how it is achieved.
I would like to add my two-cents worth to what he has already so eloquently said. Think of the lip position in the concept of the embouchure as wrapping around the mouthpiece and reed similar to a rubber band wrapping around the mouthpiece -- equal pressure from all sides with the teeth supporting the mouthpiece in the mouth. How much pressure will the teeth exert? I can't rightly say, but I know that if you do not hold the mouthpiece firmly enough with sleight or sufficient enough pressure from the teeth you will not have the control necessary to cause the tongue and all other parts of the playing mechanism in the mouth area to function correctly. If you do not sound good, there is a problem somewhere. Stop, analyze the situation, and find out where your weak spots are, and correct them.
There are so many aspects to producing a good sound and tone on the clarinet that it has to be, in my humble opinion, an individual thing based on basic principles of good playing and tone production. I feel very much for those who are trying to teach themselves to play the clarinet because they can get the first hand experience of having an individual show and help them with this aspect. I feel so strongly aboput this that this is the first thing which i do with a new student. If you can't produce a good tone (or at least a decent tone), then every else suffers because of it, and I mean EVERYTHING!!!
Your problem might not be that your teacher is teaching you wrong, just that you might not understand exactly what they are trying to explain to you. If you don't feel you understand, ASK them to explain it again. Communication is so vital in learning and if YOU don't understand you CAN'T do it.
Good luck in ylou endeavors to improve you playing.
Bob Curtis
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-08-06 14:23
I agree that adding the register key shouldn't trigger a shift in your embouchure. Perhaps your embouchure was not firm enough or set well enough to satisfy your teacher. If it was not firm enough, then a bit more "biting" pressure might have been needed as well as a bit more pressure from the sides.
To say "never bite" is wrong; that's what happens when the upper and lower jaw come together to hold the mouthpiece. The real issue is that once you have a good, firm, set, stable (get the redundant picture?) embouchure, increasing the upper/lower pressure to get notes to speak is wrong. That is the "biting" that people speak ill of. If your embouchure is moving as much as you say, your embouchure is not yet stable and is still being fine-tuned by your teacher. I think I'd listen and do what he says.
Still the very best illustration I ever experienced (with another of Opperman's students) was to have my teacher hold the mp/barrel while I played and try to wiggle it from side to side. It shouldn't slide at all, because the pressure from the sides of your lips pushing in should hold it in place. Often, people try to stabilize the embouchure with top/bottom pressure, but side pressure works better. Hopefully things will gel for you soon.
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Author: graham
Date: 2001-08-06 15:33
re the tongue. In my opinion your teacher is right, but my view on tongue position is not the common one on this board.
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Author: Richard
Date: 2001-08-06 15:49
I reckon you should follow what the book says - I've got it too, and Tom Ridenour obviously knows what he's talking about. The high, 'kick' position he describes for the tongue helped me a lot. Try what he says about using double lip to work on your embouchre, and DON'T bite. It's hard at first and progress is slow but it happens. I'm not really qualified to give advice like this, but as someone who has that book you mentioned (its very very good) and is using it to improve my embouchre, I can recommend following its advice.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2001-08-07 07:40
You feel that you cannot talk your oppinion to your teacher, or even question what he says. To me, this does not sound like a good relationship. On the other hand, it may be only your feeling, and in reality your teacher is more open minded than you think.
Don't question your teacher, but ask him questions! How much "bite"? Why can't I simply stop to move my chin? Do you want me to fix the chin by biting? How exactly should I hold my tongue? Where should it touch the reed? Am I doing it right?
Maybe it's a misunderstanding from your side, or he did not exress himself well.
First of all, the law of phyics tell us that whatever pressure the lower lip exerts to the reed must be counteracted by the upper lip-teeth combination. Wether the teeth or the lip takes more action seems relatively irrelevant to me. Only, the lips cannot easily "bite" as much as the teeth.
The only relevant problem is how much pressure to put on the reed. In general, the less the better, and the lower on the reed the better. And it is not a good idea to try counteract problems with the higher register by more pressure (also called "biting"). It is completely wrong to generate this higher pressure by moving the chin forward. This is usually agreed upon, but I bet there are good players, who do just the fobidden things and sound good.
Rene
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